Tipping / Toking Etiquette -- How should your tip compare to your bet?

[Cherry7Up]

I know that some on this board are completely against tipping the dealer while others find that it can be a useful way of getting the dealer to assist with your advantage play in subtle ways.

What about tipping simply to “fit in” as a standard casino patron? Is there a consensus about common tipping etiquette? I am used to playing $5 to $25 minimum tables but will probably have the extra disposable income to move up to $100 tables on my next trip and I am curious how my tipping should change if I want to fit in with that crowd.

At low limit tables I will occasionally place small $1-2 bets for the dealer and will leave $1-5 for the dealer when I color up after a long session. However, these amounts seem paltry (and perhaps even insulting) if my bets are $100+. What would people recommend—is it less conspicuous to not tip at all? Tip a little only if winning? Tip a lot early in a session and then not again?

Should tips to drink waitresses also increase if playing at a higher limit table? I generally tip $1 for each drink at the low-limit tables.

 

[ccl]

i had a dealer last weekend on a $25 table color a payoff down to include 3 greens and 5 reds and then made some comment something like "see if he gets the hint", i ended up just betting off the 5 reds on top of my next bet just because of his comment, other than that i was going to color down some chips and bet a hand or two for the dealers

ccl

 

[EasyRhino]

For civilians: bear in mind that dealing is very much a service job, and tokes are the vast majority of compensation. Think of it as tipping a waiter. But be very very careful about tallying up how much you're tipping per hours, and compare that to your expected loss for the play during that hour... it's easy to want to "be a sport" and end up toking enough to make things extremely expensive.

For instance, if you tip after receiving a blackjack... that could average about 5 per 100 hands, and you would have 100 hands/hour if playing at a decent clip.

For APs: Be even more careful. Compare the cost of tipping to your expected advantage on the game (if you haven't looked at sim data, assume you win 1-1.5 units per hour).

It's incredibly hard to tip anything that feels like a non-insulting mount, but still maintain a profit. Microtipping might be perceived as insulting, so that might encourage fewer, but slightly larger, tips.

If you do tip, if you can time it so that it's when dealers are changing and the pit is nearby, then at least you'll get three sets of eyes seeing that you're tipping, for the price of one.

 

[callipygian]

What about tipping simply to “fit in” as a standard casino patron?

(1) Tipping as part of cover should be folded in to a more complete discussion about cover in general.

In general, counters use way too much cover, literally throwing away their profits in return for perceived longevity, when their games and limits are too weak to garner attention anyway. So if your only goal with tipping is to fit in, take a step back and decide whether you need to fit in at all.

That being said, if you decide that you do, the goal is to tip as little as possible, which will vary from table to table. And of course, any analysis will depend heavily on your tip-to-profit ratio. If you're giving away half your profits for a doubling of lifetime, that's not really worth it.

(2) Tipping to encourage favors from the dealer should be viewed with extreme caution. Dealers who will give you extra penetration for a few bucks will just as easily cut your penetration if his pit boss offers a $50 bounty for every counter caught. If they're willing to bend the rules for you, they're willing to bend the rules against you. It's just a matter of price - either you have to offer them more than the casino, or you're going to get backstabbed sooner or later.

(3) Tipping because the dealer bullies you into doing it is just encouraging rude, and in most major casinos, outlawed behavior. If anyone ever tried to solicit a tip from me, I might go so far as to call the pit boss over.

(4) Tipping because the poor dealer is underpaid is crap. Dealers at big casinos make $50,000-$100,000 per year, less at smaller joints. They're not poor, and all things considered, they make more money dealing cards than 99% of counters do accepting cards. If you want to make money from the casino, go to dealer school, be a great dealer, and work your way up to the top Vegas Strip casinos. It's more EV positive and lower variance than any card counting scheme you can put together in the same time frame, and requires minimal bankroll.

(5) Tipping to be nice is always going to be appreciated. Like it or not, it's a part of the society we live in. It's not an ideal system, in my opinion, but it's a fact of life. If you enjoyed the dealer's services, tip what you think it's worth to you.

Don't tip for any other reason.

 

[Cherry7Up]

(1) Tipping as part of cover should be folded in to a more complete discussion about cover in general.

In general, counters use way too much cover, literally throwing away their profits in return for perceived longevity, when their games and limits are too weak to garner attention anyway. So if your only goal with tipping is to fit in, take a step back and decide whether you need to fit in at all.
...
(5) Tipping to be nice is always going to be appreciated. Like it or not, it's a part of the society we live in. It's not an ideal system, in my opinion, but it's a fact of life. If you enjoyed the dealer's services, tip what you think it's worth to you.

My interest in tipping to fit in is actually more about your #5 (being a polite member of our tipping society) than it is about cover--I have no dreams of becoming a professional player, so getting backed off is not a big concern.

My worry is that while I don't think that a good dealer is worth $0, I also don't think that a good dealer is worth $10 a shoe. About a dollar a shoe or so sounds better to me--but seems tough to pull off if I am playing at $100 a hand. Perhaps I'll just have to settle for "rounding down" to 0, tipping more than I think it is worth, or sticking to smaller stake tables.

Regardless, thanks for the advice.

 

[callipygian]

My worry is that while I don't think that a good dealer is worth $0, I also don't think that a good dealer is worth $10 a shoe. About a dollar a shoe or so sounds better to me--but seems tough to pull off if I am playing at $100 a hand. Perhaps I'll just have to settle for "rounding down" to 0, tipping more than I think it is worth, or sticking to smaller stake tables.

If that's the case, I'd say this.

(a) If you have a losing session, I don't think it's expected you're going to tip at all. Once, I tossed the dealer the change I couldn't put down on my last bet (they wouldn't let me bet my last $6.50 and said my bet had to be $6 or $7, so I bet $6 and $0.50 for the dealer on the last hand). But in general, if I'm down, I don't tip at all.

(b) One way to tip is to tip off of your blackjacks, particularly the extra 0.5 bet you get from the 3:2 blackjack payout (if you're playing an even number of chips such as two red, ask for change when you get your first BJ). Aim to spread that tip that 0.5 bet over the next 4 blackjacks, which essentially lowers you to a 7:5 payout for BJ and is roughly a $0.50 tip for every $100 you bet. (Note this doubles the house edge on a basic strategy game at -0.5% and eats about half of the edge for a counter with 1% advantage)

In the long run, the number of blackjacks you get is correlated with your total winnings, so you can worry less about giving away tons of tips on a bad streak.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

For civilians: bear in mind that dealing is very much a service job, and tokes are the vast majority of compensation. Think of it as tipping a waiter. But be very very careful about tallying up how much you're tipping per hours, and compare that to your expected loss for the play during that hour... it's easy to want to "be a sport" and end up toking enough to make things extremely expensive.

For instance, if you tip after receiving a blackjack... that could average about 5 per 100 hands, and you would have 100 hands/hour if playing at a decent clip.

For APs: Be even more careful. Compare the cost of tipping to your expected advantage on the game (if you haven't looked at sim data, assume you win 1-1.5 units per hour).

It's incredibly hard to tip anything that feels like a non-insulting mount, but still maintain a profit. Microtipping might be perceived as insulting, so that might encourage fewer, but slightly larger, tips.

If you do tip, if you can time it so that it's when dealers are changing and the pit is nearby, then at least you'll get three sets of eyes seeing that you're tipping, for the price of one.

Good advice. I haven't noticed small tips as being perceived as insulting in the stores where dealers pool tips (which is almost everywhere). Any tipping patron is appreciated and if you are acquiring comps for your table game play it will often be reciprocated.

When I'm tipping, I usually tip per natural. Once the dealer realizes you're doing this they now have a reason to deal faster, which more than makes up for the lost EV due to tipping as long as you are not overtipping. And if you're having a lousy night and not getting your naturals no one is going to expect you to tip. Good judgment and appreciation of EV math will keep you safe.

 

[ccl]

i have also noticed tipping come into play where you are being tracked for comps at some smaller casinos. Playing several times a few years ago, i ended up hitting huge just playing basic strategy and progressing my bets as i won more and more, long story short, turned $200 into close to $3,000, ended up after a while betting $5-$10 per hand for the dealers while only playing $50 a hand for myself (knew most of the dealers outside the casino and helped them out with their things such as kid furniture for the pregnant ones) and saw when i asked about comps for thing such as dinners that i had gone from $50 in dinner comps at the restaurant to where i should have had no more than maybe $80 after that session, i ended up having $300 worth in points, the floorperson ended up seeing i was nice to the dealers and made it up to me in average bet/time played inside the computer.

It all depends on the casino and the floor people the amount i tip because this casino i still tip generously due to knowing most of the dealers outside of work from the fact i used to work with most of them, and the fact that i make up for it in comps when i travel back home, which is only 1-2x a year.

ccl

 

[Kasi]

Once the dealer realizes you're doing this they now have a reason to deal faster, which more than makes up for the lost EV due to tipping as long as you are not overtipping. And if you're having a lousy night and not getting your naturals no one is going to expect you to tip. Good judgment and appreciation of EV math will keep you safe.

Just in general, nothing really to do with you, I just always wonder how counters deal with this tipping stuff.

I mean it not only has an effect on your EV, it also has an effect on your risk since you are giving units away.

I mean anytime you start funding expenses from a roll, life changes.

Do you pay waitresses with a tip from your chips if you have 5 soft drinks in a session. If you have a $10 unit and at the end of the session you have $100 profit to cashin do you say, as far as your BJ play goes, you really won $105 in effect funding waitress tips from a roll that is not your gambling roll?

Or do you not only adjust your win rate but also for the fact your BJ roll just lost a half-unit.

Where do you draw the line - it's OK to pay $15 in gas to drive back and forth to play BJ but do you treat that $15 as an expense of BJ roll or just as an everyday expense?

I tip dealers and waitresses whatever I want almost always using chips but try to make an estimate of what it amounted to when I get back to my room. Not that I'm even counting or anything - it just makes me feel better that my BJ play either won more or lost less lol.

Should I add back in for my internet play what I estimate I would have tipped and spent for gas and tipped the waitress, maybe even spent for a room, when figuring my advantage?

Can Norm's stuff run sims with the effect of tips when funded from orig roll or trip rolls if one insists on counting tips as part of BJ roll? Basically, assuming any amount of expenses funded from BJ roll and how often they are paid? Perhaps assuming such expenses as some kind of cover maybe?

Does every other dam* thing you can imagine except maybe cure the common cold:grin:

Why isn't it just so much simpler for card counters like you to adjust your winnings for tips after each session in effect just funding tips from a non-BJ roll?

 

[moo321]

I tip maybe $1-5 an hour, usually in the form of betting for the dealer in high counts. If the dealer is on to me, he's not gonna say something in a high count when I have a bet for him.

As I have progressed in limits, I have not added to my tips, and I don't intend to add much as I go further. I just tip to what I think is a fair wage for a dealer: if everyone tipped like I do, dealers would make about $15 an hour or so. Which is plenty to raise a family on.

 

[Cherry7Up]

I tip maybe $1-5 an hour, usually in the form of betting for the dealer in high counts. If the dealer is on to me, he's not gonna say something in a high count when I have a bet for him.

As I have progressed in limits, I have not added to my tips, and I don't intend to add much as I go further. I just tip to what I think is a fair wage for a dealer: if everyone tipped like I do, dealers would make about $15 an hour or so. Which is plenty to raise a family on.

Moo, I am curious about a couple of background elements:

1) Do you play primarily at locations where dealers pool tips? Do you think pooled tips weaken the dealer's incentive to assist you as a result of your tips (vs. locations where tips go directly to the dealer)?

2) What would you say is your average bet size (or your average bet spread)? (so that I can put your $1-5 an hour number in context.)

3) Do you include waitress tipping in your $1-5 figure?

 

[moo321]

Moo, I am curious about a couple of background elements:

1) Do you play primarily at locations where dealers pool tips? Do you think pooled tips weaken the dealer's incentive to assist you as a result of your tips (vs. locations where tips go directly to the dealer)?

2) What would you say is your average bet size (or your average bet spread)? (so that I can put your $1-5 an hour number in context.)

3) Do you include waitress tipping in your $1-5 figure?

1. Yes. I don't usually ask, but I don't think I've ever played at a casino where they don't pool. I think it's a terrible policy, and cuts the incentive to give good service.

2. Greens.

3. Most places in the Midwest don't give free drinks, so I don't order any. In places where they have free drinks, I usually tip the cocktail waitress .50-$1 once per session for a beer.

 

[blackchipjim]

tokes for the crew

There is a methodology to tokes and what is precieved by them. If you are losing so is the dealer and they know it. I have had dealers shuffle just a little bit better and give a little better pen when tipped. These dealers are the usuals not break ins or fill ins that is a waste of tips. I tip according to the dealer, winning and attitude of the place. If it's my usual store and dealers that recognize me we are off to a good start. The stores that I'm going to take for a ride, tokes are well placed and for effect. Some dealers are a box of rocks and wouldn't know a toke if they swallowed it. Rude dealers with bad attitudes I have no use for and let them know it. blackchipjim

 

[Tarzan]

Poor oppressed dealer syndrome

It's sort of funny, sort of humorous how dealers can have bad attitudes in general, complain about the players, their tips, etc. I play 30-60 hours a week at the tables and have just about seen it all. It's true that typically dealers pull down 50,000 a year at the very minimum and the beauty of it all is that they can be the most obnoxious dealer with the worst attitude going and be truly outwardly hostile toward the players and guess what---They STILL make the same as all the other dealers because they pool their tips together. With some of these dealers it's a miracle in itself that they are employed and have a job at all in my opinion!

There is the flip side of this coin and very "happy perky" dealers that seem to enjoy their job and are very good at dealing with the public. I would have to say that this has a positive effect on their tips. How could it not?

I tip a standard percentage rate at the end of a winning playing session. This small amount adds up as much and as often as I play and I would venture to say that my steady few bucks as a tip adds up to a much larger total at the end of the year than the typical recreational player that throws out a huge tip but only shows up at the casino 2 or 3 times a year when visiting from Osh Kosh, Wisconsin. I have seen recreational players that sort of "tip as they go", throwing the dealer a tip on every blackjack or even on every winning hand when they are ahead and by the end of the ballgame they have tipped the dealer some serious money, let's say... $100-$150 range over a few hours! Throwing the dealer $5 or $10 every time you win a few hands can add up FAST! Dealers love these people. The bad part is when their luck runs south and they lose their mule. They lost badly AND gave a ton of money to the dealer, making the loss that much worse.

Let's compare this practice to tipping a waitress in a restaurant. Would you or do you give the waitress a $20 dollar bill every time she comes to your table during the course of your meal and in doing this you end up tipping $150 for today's burger special that costs $12? Not if you are sane and rational.

Those obnoxious dealers I mentioned about are complaining and whining all the way to the bank, even if they bring the tip pool average down with that permanent scowl on their face and their poor attitude toward the casino patrons but let's get away from such negativity and talk about how the dealer can enhance their tips from someone like me that tips a flat rate percentage of each winning playing session. Any dealers reading this today? If you are and like the idea of more tokes hitting the bucket... This single and biggest thing BY A LONG SHOT is putting that cut card far enough back in case it turns out to be a good shoe! Want to ensure you get no tip at all and/or I will likely not stick around your table at all anyway is to chop that puppy nearly in half. The farther back the cut card is the better the tip for multiple reasons. One is that this shows maybe you care about the player(s) a bit and are willing to provide a few extra hands in case of a good shoe that you don't want to end so soon! Another is that with someone like me, I have a little better shot at winning the farther back that card is and since I tip based on a percentage of a winning playing session doled out at the end of a given playing session your tip will increase.

Do you as a dealer think along the lines of,"HELL NO I don't want to double my income by performing one simple function that is truly no hassle to me!" Not if you are sane and rational...

Oh! Wait a sec here. The answer to the actual original question! My answer is you do not tip in comparison to your BET, not if you ever wish to ever be able to walk out of the casino with any money left on you, that is. Tip on a percentage of your win.

 

[Sonny]

The portion of this thread regarding personal income requirements has been moved to:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=12878

-Sonny-

 

[KenSmith]

Actually, it's since been deleted. C'mon guys. Either ignore people you don't get along with or take it elsewhere.

 

[Rub]

Can anyone tell me what's the average time one shoe is being dealt ? (with and without tipping, single player and many players...)

Thanks.

 

[moo321]

Actually, it's since been deleted. C'mon guys. Either ignore people you don't get along with or take it elsewhere.

What? Why did you delete it?

 

[KenSmith]

What? Why did you delete it?

It was reported by a member via the objectionable post link. The reporting user felt that the post was made only to antagonize you. By the time I checked it, Sonny had actually relocated it to a thread of its own. Looking at the tone of the posts, I tended to agree with the reporting member. Since you are at the root of the post, PM you if you would like the thread undeleted.

 

[callipygian]

It was reported by a member via the objectionable post link.

Just so there's no mystery, I'm the one who reported it. I'm sick of InPlay turning every thread into a gay rape blood feud.

Sometimes I agree with moo321, sometimes I agree with InPlay, but I'm reporting all of InPlay's posts that unnecessarily antagonize moo321 no matter who I side with.

The first thread was actually kind of :laugh:. Now they're all just :flame:.