tokes

[aceking29]

just starting to play bj for other than "recreation".
question about toking dealers.in the 3 casinos i play in locally they offer good condition double deck and one offers a fair rule single deck game.doesn't it make sense to get the penetration that we need to tip the dealer .there are several that i have seen when being tipped they go as deep as %70 and when not being tipped will cut it at as little as %40.my question i guess is as important as pen is should i tip more and more frequently to keep the pen good?

 

[learning to count]

Dont toke! Seems like the dealers are training you to toke. Good pen comes just keep looking. Toking hurts the EV!

 

[Strider]

Please tip your dealers, they are performing you a service and rely on tokes to earn a decent wage. Yes it will hurt your EV but that is not a good reason. Just as one should tip your waiter or waitress, the dealer should not be overlooked. Unless they are rude or extremly unpleasent there really is no excuse. If you don't tip you are being cheap and greedy. Think about all the ploppies and drunks dealers have to deal with (no pun intended). As an advantage player you can certainly afford to be better than the ploppies who are always chasing their last lose with their superstitious beliefs and illogical claims.

 

[deZerTomB]

a toke every shuffle would really cut into your ev. whatever advantage you get counting, you're giving away.

I only toke occasionally as it gives me the munchies.

 

[Victoria]

I toke and have gotten a little heat from some of the pros about it, but I toke very little and at places that I continue to return to only.
The thing is, if playing SD or DD, you can not toke every shuffle or even nearly every shuffle to get penetration unless you can get them to deal down to perhaps the last 10 cards or something like that. It is just too many tokes per hour.
The occassional one or two white chips (I spread $25-$250 generally) is enough in my opinion to get the dealer to not dislike you and perhaps not go to the pit when relieved and say watch that woman on BJ14, I think she counts.

Toking for penetration is only logical when you believe the dealer knows you count and think he can be recruited to help you. Otherwise if you toke every shuffle or so, why not reduce penetration, shuffle more often and perhaps get more tokes.

Victoria

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Toke. There are all kinds of reasons for it. One is that dealers rely on tokes for their pay and all who work deserve to be paid. It even says so in the Bible, this is not a new concept. The second is penetration and speed. All you need is to get a little bit increase in pen or speed of the game to make any reasonable toke worth it, many times over. You can toke 10% of your EV and easily get a dealer to speed up by 20%, thus getting a 100% advantage on your toke. If you can get a little extra pen too you will leverage it much more. You'd have to be crazy not to take an advantage play like that.

The third is that there are enough counters out there saying "Don't toke!" that not toking has become a counter tell. A dealer told me about this.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: clocking tokes to BJ's

You can toke a percentage of your EV simply by toking on BJ's. This is something that ploppies do so you will blend right in. Let's say you decide to toke 10% of EV, and your EV is $20/hr. Being you will get a BJ every 21 hands or so, just toke $1 every other BJ. On good nights where you are getting your BJ's you will not miss the money, and on losing nights you probably won't be getting too many BJ's but when you are losing you're not expected to toke. You play the same spread that I do and I've found toking $1.50 per BJ works out just right.

More importantly, once the dealer realizes you are toking consistently on BJ's he will deal faster, so that you get more BJ's, and of course you EV goes up proportionally.

 

[gehrig]

the only reason to toke...

is to enforce your act. act permits play during game protection/pitstiff and surveillance eyeballing. proper placement of the toke-bet has collateral bennies. occasionally one may play the dealer for deeper pen, though that acknowledges that the player is counting... to all observers besides the dealer. {wouldn't any of you "advantage" players spot that move ?}. further discussion of toke manipulation is unwarranted in an open forum. no sense in discarding a working move.

 

[LV Bear]

Dealers are "performing a service"?

Please tip your dealers, they are performing you a service and rely on tokes to earn a decent wage.

What "service" is a dealer performing that merits tipping? Not yelling "checks play" as loudly as usual?

I agree with Gehrig. Except in rare instances, tipping should only be done when it is a necessary part of your act. Most of the time, tipping a dealer is just throwing your money in the trash. Take the money you thought about handing over to dealers and give it to charity instead.

 

[LV Bear]

I used to believe that, too

The second is penetration and speed.

Years ago, as a then-novice advantage player, I believed that the dealer would understand why I was tipping, and would therefore deal a better game. I soon came to realize that the vast majority of dealers are on auto-pilot, just putting in their eight hours to collect their paycheck. Most dealers know very little and care very little about advantage play, penetration, and game speed. Most don't even realize WHY you are toking them. They have no idea that you would like them to deal deeper and faster. While there are exceptions, they are few and far between.

 

[Brillo]

Re: I used to believe that, too

You are correct about most dealers not having a clue. But if you run into one that does, you might have to find a new place to play. Dealers view you the same way you view them: as dead weight. They want to move you off their table as quickly as possible. And why wouldn't they turn you into the pit when they can ensure that you will never occupy the space of a possible toker, and earn some brownie points as well?

Again, dealers who have a clue could care less if you count cards; in fact, they want you to count them if it means more revenue for them.

In my experience, counters are not too hard to spot. They just don't blend in well with the average player, who is there to have fun, get drunk, socialize, and isn't all that concerned about how a $1 or $2 toke every 1/2 hour might jeopardize their daily 'earnings.'

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: I used to believe that, too

"Most dealers know very little and care very little about advantage play, penetration, and game speed. Most don't even realize WHY you are toking them. They have no idea that you would like them to deal deeper and faster."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's why you have to tell them!

"Hey man I'm falling asleep over here. Do you think you could deal a little faster? Thanks buddy." I had a dealer increase his speed 50% after asking him once.

 

[Strider]

Yes, Dealers are performing a service.

Dealers are performing a service. The casino industry is a service industry. The casino industry does not produce any tangable good. They offer a service. They serve the players by smiling, making small talk, and by dealing. Dealers have to generally be pleasent and kind. They have to overlook alot of crap directed at them. I'm not the only counter who believes that dealers should be tipped. The Mayor does as well. You should read his essay on tipping on this site. Your sarcasm aside, the dealer is only doing his job by yelling "checks play." He or she has to make sure the pit is aware about what's going on at their game. Many dealer's are paid minimum wage by the casino and only earn a decent wage because of tokes. Try to put yourself in another person's shoes sometimes, it may make you a little more symphathetic.

 

[learning to count]

Re: Yes, Dealers are performing a service.

Listen, what service do you get from a dealer except him taking your money? The LV casino machine offers sh!te for games. They are trying to convince the public that gambling offers entertainment. This is a bunch of of marketing Bullsh!t if not a wholesale lie.

Your premises that the dealers are working and deserve the tip is sh!t. First of all the csino's pay sh!t for wages. It was just recently the casino slave labor force got a union. The dealers know this and they take the job any way believing the hype that if the right degenerate billionaire gambler comes along he will tip them a milllion for thier fancy way of riffling the cards. Dealing is a dumb way to make money.

Second waiters and waitresses make a good living and they at least feed us. In other words there is a benifit to spending money with them. This is economics 101.

So if you get off on losing your money and paying to lose it by tipping have at it. This crap of feeling sorry for the dealers is stupid. If ya wanna tip go ahead its your money. I dont tip! I wanna win and keep my hard earned profits!

Or maybe I am confusing you with Card counters and Gamblers!

PS I seem to remember Grosjean's play being tipped off by a dealer to the Pit Critter who then alerted upstairs. Grosjean was roughed up, falsely arrested, and lost money due to theft. Thier are many stories of such abuse of Professional card counters. They were picked out by yes you guessed it the DEALER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh yeah the Mayor does not tip. If he did it was minimal a buck or two to look like he was! LV bear never tips! NOR DO I!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[learning to count]

I guess I should tip Jesus for dying for me!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: I used to believe that, too

'In my experience, counters are not too hard to spot. They just don't blend in well with the average player, who is there to have fun, get drunk, socialize, and isn't all that concerned about how a $1 or $2 toke every 1/2 hour might jeopardize their daily 'earnings.'"
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Then that makes it so easy! Just have fun, drink, socialize, and occasionally toke. If you sit there looking and acting like the old guy clipping the coupons out of the newspaper at the library, you're going to get busted. Every time I've been busted (which hasn't been often) it's been when I wasn't partying with the other players at the table.

 

[BlackJackHack]

Re: Yes, Dealers are performing a service.

Clearly, reasonable people can disagree about this issue. IMHO, the dealers are not performing a service, and tipping only makes economic sense when it helps your act or your play. On the other hand, they are paid a very low wage and do rely on tips to make a living - you can make a valid ethical argument that they should be tipped.

Of course, the real villain in this scheme is the casino. Why don't they just pay the dealers a living wage and remove the tip cup? Not only do they rape their customers at the tables, but they essentially insist that the customers pay the dealers! The dealers, then, are left having to beg and grovel for living from the customers. The house makes out very well from this arrangement, as the customers (in addition to losing at the tables) have to pay the dealers. Advantage: house. Disadvantage: dealers and customers.

 

[Brillo]

Re: I used to believe that, too

Well...yes. Sip a beer, whistle at the cocktail waitress perhaps, whine about your cards, act like you're really pondering over that erratic move, give the other players a high five or something. Basically, act like your basic black-jack-playing jackoff.

I've been told that the profile for a counter is a young white male in a baseball cap so I'm not so sure about the old man clipping coupons part.

 

[Brillo]

Re: Yes, Dealers are performing a service.

The casinos are not going to do this. They fight tooth and nail to stop the dealers from unionizing yet they allow the cocktail waitresses, bartenders and cooks a union.

Learning to Count makes a point. He is out to make money. And so am I. I work at a very good casino so I do pretty well, but as a dice dealer, I know that the snapper tables are the cash cow. This is the only game that consistently brings in the money. So, when I am subjected to snapper land, I'll do what I can to keep the stiffs from occupying space. I can't do anything about the superstitious stiffs, but I can do something about the counting stiffs.

I think casinos routinely violate the civil rights of counters and some brilliant legal team should someday be able to win a lawsuit and take them for a bundle. They shouldn't have their cake and eat it too; they either stop discriminating or do away with the game completely.

Strider can count at my table all day long. Learning to Count will be regulated to the land of the $10 flat bet if not the asphalt pavement. If he feels the dealers are out to get him it's entirely his own fault. It's not his counting ability, it's his attitude that's going to do him in. And if you can't distinguish between a regular dealer looking make a toke, or in regards to a counter, a bribe, and a narc dealer looking to make floor, well, then this probably isn't the sort of hobby that you should be pursuing.

 

[LV Bear]

Dealers are overpaid

Try to put yourself in another person's shoes sometimes, it may make you a little more symphathetic.

Dealers are overpaid. At minimum wage, with the excessive tipping most ploppies engage in, their actual wage is around $12.00 per hour in the worst dumps ($25,000.00 per year), and around $25.00 - $30.00 per hour at the carpet joints ($50,000.00 - $60,000.00 per year)

The high-end dealers make more than most police officers, nurses, or teachers make. Yet the dealer has a job that requires no formal education, no real skills, and only a few weeks of training. Many dealers barely speak English, and many have minimal or NO "people skills."

Yet people line up to take dealer jobs. Why? Because dealing is a better job than they are able to find elsewhere. There are a few exceptions, particularly bright young people who may be dealers for a short time while going to school or getting ready to embark on other careers, but need immediate employment.

Granted, it's an unpleasant environment and miserable work, frequently dealing with disrespectful, hostile, and sometimes drunken members of the public. I doubt if I, personally, would last a single day as a dealer. But that doesn't take away the fact that there is no dealer shortage anywhere that I'm aware of. So the job must not be that bad for those willing to do it.

The shameful practice of most casinos mandating that dealers pool their tips further justifies not tipping., in my opinion. Maybe I'm "unsympathteic," or maybe I'm just "looking out for number one." I do tip generously those who provide a service to me, in positions where tipping is normal and customary. But I don't tip a plumber, electrician, or auto mechanic. Do you tip them? They certainly provide a service -- why don't they deserve tips, but a dealer does?

In thousands of hours in casinos, I can think of only a handful of times when dealers went out of their way to provide me with any quantifiably valuable "service" that should earn them tips -- i.e., better pen, not loudly shouting "checks play," dealing as quickly as they were able, etc. Most dealers are on auto-pilot, just normal working people trying to get through their routine workday. Very few know anything about advantage play, and fewer still would recognize my offering some meager tokes as a subtle request for the better playing conditions that are within their power to dispense.

I agree that for the ploppy, who is in the casino to be "entertained," and is willing to lose his or her money for the dubious "entertainment value" they receive, the people skills of the dealer may add value to their "entertainment experience." Such a person should, and almost always does, tip the dealer. They are receiving a "service" from the dealer, in that their time at the table is more pleasant. Ploppies are usually content to sit there until they lose all their money, anyway, so I'd rather the dealer gets some than the casino owner. But, just as I won't play a casino game with negative EV, I won't just give away my money for no reason.

For a skilled player who is in a casino simply to make money, and not for any other reason, tipping is a waste, except for the instances that it provides cover and/or longevity. I don't care if the dealer is pleasant or not. In fact, my favorite type of dealer is one who deals very quickly, and never says a word -- a deaf mute would be the perfect dealer. No useless, idle chitchat, no nosy questions, nothing. Just the cards flying as fast as possible, to maximize my hands-per-hour.

Other than at the times when tipping buys cover and/or longevity, it's just another business expense that can be cut out. Would you pay a higher prices for gasoline than you have to, because the gas station cashier is "pleasant"? Would you pay higher prices for any commodity product than you have to? Needlessly giving away a portion of your profit is the same thing. It directly affects your bottom line. I just don't see the point in deliberately lowering my profit for no reason.