tokes

LV Bear

LV Bear

Administrator
"...the real villain in this scheme is the casino"

Of course, the real villain in this scheme is the casino. Why don't they just pay the dealers a living wage and remove the tip cup? Not only do they rape their customers at the tables, but they essentially insist that the customers pay the dealers! The dealers, then, are left having to beg and grovel for living from the customers. The house makes out very well from this arrangement, as the customers (in addition to losing at the tables) have to pay the dealers. Advantage: house. Disadvantage: dealers and customers.

Well said. Worth repeating.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
Re: Good post Brillo

You've made the point I'm trying to- that a dealer can get rid of you any time he wants, and that he won't want to get rid of someone who tokes whether he is counting or not. It's a normal human reaction; you see me making money, and you're not making any money yourself, and you're going to be resentful. I'm sure you can understand why a guy and even a counter having a losing night won't be toking, but if he also has a prickish attitude that won't be so forgivable. Me, I toke everyone, even the men's room attendant, because I want to make friends and not enemies of every person in that establishment.

In the places where I play tokes are collected by the house and split up among the dealers. I hear they make about $70K a year and here in the East dealer school is free. Now most of the floor people who rate your play for comp points are also dealers sometimes, so they get a piece of the tokes. And when a player leaves, I'll hear the floor guy ask the dealer if the guy was toking before he rates him. That is quite a racket for both players and dealers- give a toke and get it all back and then some on your player's card.
 
LV Bear

LV Bear

Administrator
You think a player should toke over $6,000.00 per year?

...isn't all that concerned about how a $1 or $2 toke every 1/2 hour might jeopardize their daily 'earnings.'

A $2.00 toke "every 1/2 hour" is <u>$6,336.00 per year</u> for a player who puts in a lot of hours.

($2 every 1/2 hour = $4 per hour x average 6 hours per day x 22 days per month x 12 months.)

And most dealers think a player is cheap when toking "only" $2.00.
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Re: Yes, Dealers are performing a service.

"Strider can count at my table all day long. Learning to Count will be regulated to the land of the $10 flat bet if not the asphalt pavement. If he feels the dealers are out to get him it's entirely his own fault. It's not his counting ability, it's his attitude that's going to do him in. And if you can't distinguish between a regular dealer looking make a toke, or in regards to a counter, a bribe, and a narc dealer looking to make floor, well, then this probably isn't the sort of hobby that you should be pursuing."

This is the typical vice of the casino corporate mentality: Greed. The games that are there are supposed to be a game of chance. We as card counters do nothing to change the game. We dont cheat. The casinos purvey lies about thier games of theft. We are able to beat thier game and win. So we are the persecuted. The dealer is not the victim here. The offered philosphy here is that we are wrong if we dont tip and we should be tossed out on the street. Whew and you can actually with good conscience say that you can deny a person the right to play a game that is sanctioned by the Government of the people of the state of Nevada because they can beat the game legally. What a monopoly! Dealers are out to get anyone who beats the game. Hobbies are fun. Taking the casino's money is by far the best experience. Good luck in catching me or my peers.
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Re: You think a player should toke over $6,000.00 per year?

The problemis that we are arguing with the casino front line troops who want card counting made illegal. They are worried about thier wallets not the casino patrons who lose the mortgage. This bull about the dealers deserving tips is funny. You know with this tipping mentality you should tip every one you see;"Thank you for the traffic ticket officer, here is a tip for the experience and for the lesson I have learned".
 
B

Brillo

Well-Known Member
Re: Dealers are overpaid

So dealers at the El Cortez, Golden Gate, Western, Gold Spike, Barcelona, etc., places I would characterize as the worst dumps in Vegas make $25,000 per year? Hardly. Try minimum wage and perhaps $20.00 in the toke envelope at the end of the day. There is hardly any guarantee they will make that much money at the Plaza, LVC or Tuscany.

As far as not speaking English, yes there are a lot that cannot and they spend their entire careers in a dump. But if you are playing at the Rio or Venetian, I can pretty much guarantee that the dealer will be able to carry on a conversation with you.
 
A

aceking29

Member
Re: Dealers are overpaid

"But I don't tip a plumber, electrician, or auto mechanic. Do you tip them? They certainly provide a service -- why don't they deserve tips, but a dealer does?"lvbear are you that freakin stupid to post that as a question?in order plumber $45/hour,electrician$55/hour,and auto mechanic up to $75/hr.i dont need to write more i hope!
 
B

Brillo

Well-Known Member
Re: You think a player should toke over $6,000.00 per year?

No, they don't think a player is cheap for toking a dollar or $2. And I based that on an average player who does not spend his life at the tables. And no one expects you to toke when you lose. But if you bought it for $500 and you have over $2000 sitting in front of you, and you don't toke a cent, all the dealers will hate you since they will talk about the cheap bastard on table 10. You will of course not be popular with management so if you have the dealers against you as well...well...as a counter, you just might be pressing your luck.

But do what you like. I'm just offering information and have never hustled or begged for a toke in my life. I treat every player with respect regardless of their tipping habits. The fleas of course have to reach for their come bets but they like to do that anyway; it makes them feel less obligated.

I realize that there are georges and stiffs and those in between and it will always be that way. But I still hold the opinion that if you feel that you can't afford to tip the dealer a buck after the end of his shift, paricularly if he spent the entire time dealing to just you, maybe you just arn't that much of a counter or even that much of a human being.
 
T

Tom

Well-Known Member
These so called pros you talk about that say "dont toke,it cuts EV!!" and so forth are probably not pros anyway. If someone has an average ev of 4 bucks an hour then toking a few bucks an hour might not be a good idea,but do you really think this is advice of a pro!? The way I look at it,is any, ahem'..self proclaimed PRO who cant afford to tip a few bucks, cant afford to gamble. There is nothing worse than having a reputation at casinos you frequent as being known as a tightwad who never tips,not I.
 
T

Tom

Well-Known Member
Re: Dealers are my BEST friends.

Yeah,that's right, my best friends indeed.

I've read your post in the past about not tipping and so forth but disagree. There is nothing worse than pissing off a bunch of dealers by being known to never tip. And yes this can piss them off. Bear,you've been known to give us card counters on the internet a bad rap by having a reputation as tighwads who never tip.

Speak for yourself,not I.
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Re: Dealers are overpaid

So what you are saying is that you believe that it is alright to play a game that is so bad that you do not have a chance at winning or at least have enough money to take a cab home. Then to double the pain you tip the trained monkey who grabbed your money and stuck in his tin box! This is gambling not gaming as they call it now. Your tipping your vice. Whew we have a lot of intelligence flowing here.
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Dear Brillo and other dealers.

Brillo why did you become a dealer? Are you paying for medical school or did you lose interest in finishng your PHD?????

If a person chooses to become a dealer it is his own choice. The law does not say we have to tip any dealer be he in the EL cortez or the Venetian. The law does say we do have the right to play Blackjack and if we can beat the house edge by pure mental endeavors then there is nothing the casino or the dealer can do to stop us from counting cards.

The dealer who in his anger of not being tipped changes the game to make it unplayable is in essence subjectivily cheating. In fact Uston in his case in New Jersey won by showing that the casino could not stop the player from playing just because he was a counter. He showed that the casino could not throw out the Card Counter. Throwing the player out is the same intent as making the game unplayable.

In effect if his arguement was taken farther as he sought he could have stopped the casino from making any game changes to the rules of how the game is dealt and played; to wit; half shoing, adding decks, etc. Uston was able to level the playing field in gambling. His case showed the greed in gaming today. This greed has created more games that masturbate the ego and not allow the filling of the wallet of the player who is legally skilled. All the while the casino runs away with the profits. Remember that the wages of the dealer is nothng compared to the profits of the casino. Even the state's take is miniscule compared to what the casino is making. The average dealer is working in an industry that gives or produces nothing for the country. Sure you get to buy a new car while 20 others lose thier home because the mortgage payment went into the tip jar. Your arguement of tipping the dealer so he can feed his family is lame!

If your going to offer games of chance leave the chance in! As far as tipping while counting cards. When you win you must also keep the overhead down that means no tipping. This idea of "you must tip the dealer" is subjective and has no foundations. Any way tipping to get the dealer to cooperate and deal a game that will make a card counters life easy "may" be violating the law that states about collusion between the casino worker and patron? So tipping the dealer because he is dealing deep or not calling checks play is bordering a criminal law. This is not subjective this is a criminal act. The intent is to change the game in behalf of the player so he can win. So you stay on your side of the table and I will stay on mine.

By the way where do you work any way. From the sound of your attitude you may deliver a good game if I tipped you! Let me know and I will play on your shift. I would tip you if I knew you would give me a good game. Hey I am an advantage player and if I knew you would cooperate for a tip well that is an advantage for me. A couple of bucks here and there would go far! See you in the green felt jungle! LTC : )
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
I will amend my beliefs on not toking. Tokes do hurt the EV. SO I dont toke. If I did find a dealer who would deal an excellent game for a few measily tokens of affection the so be it I will toke em! Hey I look for the advantage! LTC
 
B

Brillo

Well-Known Member
Re: Dear Brillo and other dealers.

I said before that I work at a very good casino and make more money here than I would teaching English. I also enjoy the job more; I enjoy being surrounded by beautiful women and unlike most dealers, I love dealing with drunks and crazy people.

I may be stupid for dealing but are you all that smart for sitting down and playing? Judging from the popularity of 6:5, I would imagine that the games are only going to get worse. The casinos do not offer the game to for you to make money. More advice to you would be to spread yourself thin between the casinos and to cut up the player card.
 
D

dogman

New Member
Bottom line.....

is that toking almost never aids the AP in extracting money from the casinos.
In this forum on cardcounting AP we would be well served to remember this.
For the record, I never tip.
 
V

Victoria

Well-Known Member
Re: Yes, Dealers are performing a service.

To Brillo
You made some good points. The one that hit me is the one about the ambitious dealer looking to make floor. My method of playing is friendly with occassional but small tokes. You can toke a little for cover and toke a little to get that minority dealer who can figure out you are counting to not care. The dealer I fear is the one looking to move up. First you need to know who he is and then just move on because no sane counter would try to toke this dealer into semi partnership. His soul belongs to the corporation.

To the non toking pros
In some ways this conversation is apples and oranages in my opinion.

A pro I think travels to many different casinos. His goal hit them as hard and as fast as possible and get out before being thrown out and then move on to the next place. Longevity is only important in that there is some other place to go and play but totally unimportant in returning to the same place over and over again. So to you a toke has no positive value.

A recreational player (I am lucky if I get 150 hours in a year) especially with the advent of local Indian casinos generally wants to continue playing for as long as possible in the same place. If you have a place only an hour drive with decent rules and penetration and not toking might get you tossed spreading $25-$300, is not toking going to improve your EV instead if the alternative is a 4 hour drive or flight to Vegas and reducing your yearly hours to less than 75? The same place many of the dealers also work one or two days a week in the pit, so some may know I count but all know that if I am winning, I will toke a little. On a good day for the record I am probably toking $5 or less per hour. Toke hustling dealers though still get nothing from me.
Now when I go to Vegas I will play the same way in the casino that comps my room and food, but when I cross the street I may not care because I have no plan to return soon and may play more like a pro.
Victoria
 
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