TOKES

[aceking29]

I LIKE THAT MY ORIGINAL POST STIRRED SOME ON THIS BOARD.YOU SEE I AM ONE OF YOU A FAIRLY GOOD COUNTER WHO SPREADS 50-300 AT OUR LOCAL JOINTS.BUT I AM ALSO A DEALER.
AND ALL I WILL SAY TO YOU WHO THINK DEALERS SHOULDN'T BE TOKED IS YOU GET THE EXACT TREATMENT THAT YOU DESERVE.DEALING IS A SERVICE IN A CUSTOMER SERVICE INDUSTRY AND THEREFOR IF TREATED WITH GOOD CUSTOMER SERVICE IS DESERVING OF A TOKE.AND TO THOSE WHO THINK A DEALER HAS NO CONTROL OF THE GAME HE IS DEALING ,
WELL THEN YOU REALLY HAVE NO CLUE.THAT SHITTY %45 PEN YOUR GETTING FROM THAT GUY WHOM YOU SEE AS SOME LUMP DEALING THE CARDS MIGHT ACTUALLY BE FROM A FELLOW COUNTER WHO IS DOING HIS BEST FOR YOU TO START ONLY AFTER A WHILE HE REALIZES HE IS GOING TO BE DEALING TO YOU FOR $5 PER HOUR.OR WHEN THAT COUNT FINALLY SOARS AFTER 10 BAD DOUBLE DECK SHUFFLES IN A ROW AND THERE ARE A GOOD 5-6 HANDS LEFT,OOPS HE DROPS THE DECKS AND SHUFFLES,HMMM...NO HEAT FROM PIT OR SUVEILLANCE FOR THIS ONE .I DO IT REGUARLY TO COUNTING STIFFS I DEAL TO.ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS COUNTER AND I GET A PAT ON THE BACK.
ON THE OTHER HAND THOSE COUNTERS THAT REALIZE THAT A DEALER CAN MAKE IT A VERY PROFITABLE NIGHT AND PUT THE DEALERS UP WHEN THEY ARE WINNING, WELL %75 PEN IS COMMON FOR ME AND OOPS DEALING ONE PAST THE CUT CARD SEEMS TO HAPPEN A LOT TOO.
SO TO ALL OF YOU WHO STIFF JUST KEEP FIGHTING THE WAR.AND TO YOU THAT TOKE KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK YOUR TOKES ARE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED AND I KNOW MY FELLOW DEALERS(AT LEAST THE ONES THAT HAVE A CLUE)WILL KEEP TRYING TO GIVE YOU THE BENEFIT OF A GOOD GAME TO SHOOT AT.

 

[deZerTomB]

all i have to say is turn off the caps lock. stop screaming.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Just keep the Aces & Faces in the play part of the deck, not under the cut card, and we'll all be whistlin' Dixie.

 

[The Mayor]

Let's look at our counter who spreads from $10 to $100 on double deck. This player may have an edge of 1% overall in a good game, and an average bet in the $25-$30 range. Playing heads up double deck, there will be about 10 hands played, for a total of $250-$300 wagered. The counter can expect to make 1% of that $300 as profit, or $2.50 to $3.00.

How much of that $2.50 profit per deck do you want in order to keep the game good? Do you see now how absurd your request is for tokes?

Dealers will do just fine on tokes from ploppies, but advantage players are there to earn some $$$. If you would understand the simple long term struggle such players must endure, you would be much more compassionate and freely deal deep.

The dealers are the front line in the deterioration of the games.

Do it just because you should!!!

--Mayor

 

[Brillo]

I think the dealers are asking for a toke per shift not deck. As far as the dealers being on the frontline regarding deteriation of the games, I don't think it is the dealers who dicate the rules of the game. As far as dealing deep, they should deal just as deep as the house wants. If it is just the tourist who is providing the tips, then deal to the tourist. The tourist could care less about penetration. In fact, they love when you shuffle frequently since it allows them to play longer.

Anyways, this whole conversation is probably fruitless. Most dealers are automatons, so it is probably no benefit to the counter to tip, unless they have found a favorable game and a favorable dealer that they want to continue a relationship with.

But again, I think you're argument is with the casino not the dealer. The two are not exactly intertwined.

 

[Like a freckle]

I don't feel bad for the overpaid dealers

I don't feel bad for dealers and what they earn. It all comes down to economics.

People are paid what they are worth. Supply and demand meet in the middle somewhere, and that is where the wage is set. Say there were a shortage of dealers. Wages would increase for dealers. Conversely, wages would decrease if there were an excess supply of dealers. Currently there is an excess of dealers. Therefore, they shouldn't be paid much. Why pay more than they have to? Would you pay ten dollars when you could get something for five?

All of us have interacted with dealers. We have been dealt cards. We know how little knowledge is needed to do the job. Why should some dealers make more than school teachers and firemen? The same argument could be made for cocktail waitresses. Any bimbo can write down your drink and deliver it some time later. Yet horny old men slip the women cash like the money were as worthless as German marks after WWII.

I will admit that tipping may change penetration or could positively affect EV. If tipping does increase EV more than the cost of tipping, then that is the only time it is worth it. Otherwise, why bother tipping? The dealers are already being overpaid. Saying you must tip people that perform services is asinine. Who the hell made up that rule? How about the people that perform services daily that are never tipped? Think fast food. Think janitors.

Bartenders, cocktail waitresses, and dealers are all overpaid. The skill needed to perform is minimal. They are overcompensated for their job. End of story.

 

[aceking29]

my question for the mayor is WHY SHOULD I? cause your a good guy,because i recognize your a skilled player,because you mumbled mot her fuc ker to me when i drew 5 card 21AGAINST PAT 20 WITH $300 OUT.I DONT THINK SO!MONEY TALKS AND YOUR BULL SH IT GETS THE SHORT CUT!PERIOD.

 

[rocky]

Re: I don't feel bad for the overpaid dealers

"The skill needed to perform is minimal"...you sure you understand the dealing process? A good dealer on a SD/DD game is a true artist at work...have you ever dealt a hand professionally? With that attitude then the majority of the dealer compensation will dwindle, people will not become dealers and the casino will not be able to staff the table games(which most casino's view as a side line to the more profitable slot machine play) and eventually the only "21" action you will get will be from a video screen on these digital "21" games popping up. The entire gaming process is dependent on each other...your "the hell with the dealers" attitude is going to rear up and bite you where it's going to hurt...in the pocket book.

 

[LV Bear]

"True artist at work" -- LOL!

A good dealer on a SD/DD game is a true artist at work...

Subway used to (maybe still does) call their counter service workers "sandwich artists."

 

[Like a freckle]

"True artist" - are you joking?!

I do understand the dealing process. A third grader could understand the dealing process. With all due respect, we all know that blackjack is not difficult to deal. Anyone can learn how to deal after an hour or two of instruction. And no, I have not dealt a hand professionally, though that doesn't discredit me whatsoever. You don't have to give birth to a child to understand there is pain involved. I have dealt blackjack to my friends on numerous occasions, however. It is very simple to do.

Let's face it: many dealers possess little or no education. Many know barely enough English to get by. The job calls for no college education. Most probably have no marketable skills. Why do you think they are dealers? They should be paid as much as the "sandwich artist" at Subway that makes your sandwich. At least the employees at Subway are able to communicate ideas effectively. Most dealers can't even make small talk, much less understand elementary level English. If you can add simple numbers and perform basic arithmetic, you can be a blackjack dealer.

Dealing is a process, much like digging a ditch is a process, much like making a hamburger is a process, much like... well, you get the idea. Remedial, repetitive actions become hardwired in your brain. The muscle memory develops quickly.

Saying blackjack dealers are artists is ridiculous.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: "True artist at work" -- LOL!

It worked for Jerod. "I was on the Jerod diet. Look, now I have to much skin. My neck looks like a vaj-eye-na!" We call our garbage truckers Sanitary Engineers. ;> What's a big name with nothing to go with it? Better to be called a Burger King if you ask me. Still, a good dealer can make sure you get the cards on the top of the deck, just as easily as he can burry them. You must agree LVBear?

PS Why are you called a Bear and not a Blackjack Engineer? ;>

 

[ladykiller]

Re: "True artist" - are you joking?!

I agree completely. They are unskilled labor. I find it unacceptable in all ways you can look at it to say that many dealers make as much as an electrical engineer or any other skilled profession. As one, I think that it is ridiculous that I go to school for 4 years, bust my ass, and some guy who often times never even graduated from highschool can take some class and after a few weeks make the same as me. It's bullshit.
They are unskilled labor and trying to toke in the hopes that they'll deal you a few extra cards to make an some extra EV is a fantasy for 99.9% of dealers out there; maybe more. Face it, even the pit bosses are morons, who possessed maybe 10 points more IQ than the rest of the dealers, or could kiss more ass to get there.

 

[Brillo]

Re: "True artist" - are you joking?!

This has been a good discussion, too bad for the chippiness. I think there are very few people who are really, really good at what they do, be they dealers, counters, basketball players or opera composers.

Now, I think I have been convinced that counters perhaps should not tip. It's up to you, and if you feel good with yourself, go for it.

But I'm also equally convinced that for the most part, I should give no consideration whatsoever to counters. My responsibility is to all my customers, of which counters make up a distinct minority. Why should I deal fast when the other players do not like it? They want to be entertained, engage in small talk, make jokes, pause for dramatic effect before revealing their DD card, give them time to consult the entire table before making their decision, et cetera. Why should I cut that 8-deck shoe really deep when it may cause my tokers to lose their money faster? To benefit casinos and counters?

Perhaps there is no common ground to be found here. Both dealers and counters are in the casino to make money, so I feel that my attention should be given to those who are giving me money, not the casino, not the counter, but the average tourist/player looking for a good time. So if they want me to take my time and entertain and shuffle a great deal, well, that's just what I am going to do.

 

[Hal Jordan]

Agreed...

and if they are a good player they either won't be at your table, or you won't know they are there. Quite the perfect symbiotic relationship.

HJ

 

[deZerTomB]

Re: "True artist" - are you joking?!

no penetration, no patronage from me.

don't you get tired of showing 100 ploppies in a row how to tuck their cards under the bet? How much do the $5 flat bettors really tip? What if you're dealing black and a whale who isn't tipping complains to the host about the sourpuss dealer who whines for tips and shuffles after 2 hands? What if your casino goes to notch type system where you have no control over the penetration? What if they stick you on roulette all day because too many regular customers are complaining about you? What if the pit watches you place the penetration card on a non-tipping player and says that's not the way we do it here? What's your response? Why don't you just dole out comps for tips? Can I get a suite for a green toke? Cut out the middle man and just take your deserved tokes out of the tray or players losses.

You must be a powerful dealer who answers to no one.

Another point: there is only one action that determines which cards come out first and that is obviously the placement of the cut card.

Finally: my point with all this is that the road to riches and the thousand dollar tip palace is paved with a professional, respectful, courteous manner to all player alike, from the homeless to the whale. You'll never see anything but red with that attitude.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: If you see me...

Remember I will toke you every BJ. I am not greedy, selfish, or foolish. Cut reasonbly deep, and most importantly deal fast because I can count faster than anyone can deal. More hands= more BJ's = more tokes. To be able to count successfully is a gift that not everyone has, I appreciate my gift, and I'm willing to share my profits with those who help me make them.

Anyone here who doesn't toke at all, please, let me know when and where you will be playing. I'll sit somewhere else and while you're sitting there getting hawked and having your play evaluated upstairs, I'll be drinking, toking, and spreading the casino's legs.

 

[Brillo]

Re: "True artist" - are you joking?!

You seem to be a bit misinformed about how the pit works. The floor doesn't sweat me about cut card placement or anything else. They know that I know what I'm doing. I make more money than most of them anyway. I deal everything except tiles and the customers love me. I guess you can say that's a pretty powerful combination for being left alone.

And I don't whine about tokes. I've never hustled or begged for a toke in my life. I only whine when they move me over to snapperland. Also, your paranoia is making you believe that the pit revolves around you. It does not. I could care less about you as does the entire pit for the most part. Whatever heat you draw is largely your own fault, I can assure you of that.

 

[Strider]

Dealers are people too.

I agree with you Brillo. You see I'm a cardcounter turned dealer. I'm a young and poor college kid who is saving up money so I can finish my education. I currently have ambitions to go to law school. I became a dealer because of mainly the money. I average around 7-8 dollars an hour in tokes in the card room I work in. Combined with my miniumum wage perhaps that is "overpaid" but to those who believe in the free market system tipping is optional. The free market also doesn't support the concept of the minimum wage which I'm not sure most of you would want to get rid of. I've only been dealing for about two months now and to those who say it is easy is kidding themselves. Things are alot different on the other side. The house wants the dealers to be fast, accurate, and consistant all while communicating with the pit and the patrons. They have to deal of alot of money and while there is no great math in involved they have to really know their arithmatic. A third grader could not deal. While it is an unskilled job it does require about a month of training and alot of practice to be good. Alot of people seem angry and hostile towards dealers simply because they put their cut card where the house tells them to or that they make a decent wage. Please, dealers are people too (not automations) and not all of us aspire to do it as a career. I tip dealers as a counter because it is the decent thing to do. I can understand the mathematical argument and the professional aspect but that still doesn't convince me. I've yet to notice a card counter playing in the place I work (yet alone a consistent basic strategy player). Before this discussion I probably would of tried to give the best penetration possible to a counter if I noticed there was one but now I'm not so sure. I'm working for the house, not the player, so if the player is going to screw me (along with my employer) I mient as well not care about the counter. The house does provide me with a job and a place to earn money. They also pay us even when we are on break. I'm not asking for a grand gift from the players or the counters when I deal, just a buck or two if I see you are winning or enjoying yourself.

 

[learning to count]

Re: Dealers are people too.

On one trip in LV I had a great win for the week. I was way over my expected EV. The guys and I thought we would pay a visit to a local gentlemans club. Now we tip these girls! During one extended conversation with one of the girls. The club was pretty much empty except for our team. I asked her highness why she was a exotic dancer. She claimed that she was in nursing school and this was a great way to earn money. I asked her how much she earned. She answered over 150k a year! I asked "just for dancing". Well she said sometimes I entertain gentlemen after the club closes in the privacy of thier hotel rooms. Her being so gorgeous I felt obliged to ask how much. She answered "the whole night for $1500! I asked "do you get a lot of business at that price." She pulled down her diamond studded tube top and revealed two perfect specimens of a man's demise. I looked and exclaimed yep you get that much. I still can't figure out why she wanted to be a 40k a year nurse. She did say that she made excellent tips sticking that perfect a$$ in guys faces! Yep I tipped her well but I never could get myself to put out the 1500 for that nights physical examination! Yeah some people deserve tips!

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Run While You Still Have Legs!

Brill, these math guys are right. If they tip you, they cut into there 1% edge, no question. Some of the guys have no other source of income. I make $32/hr at work, lots online playing sports and blackjack, can tithe, and tithe to my savings, with the other 80% buy a new house, two new cars, take Carribean holidays with my family, sponsor children in Sri Lanka, and can afford to toke a dealer $1 (I play it for them when the count is in our favor or when I expect an A) every half hour without my BJ BR even noticing the leak. My average win rate is $99.90 an hour playing 8 deck blackjack with a table minimum of $15.