If I owned a casino, I'd rather deal with conventioneers out on their yearly jaunt than people that know their game. they've identified their niche, lets see if it works.
Venetian and others slash comps
- Thread starter zengrifter
- Start date
If I owned a casino, I'd rather deal with conventioneers out on their yearly jaunt than people that know their game. they've identified their niche, lets see if it works.
Craps Master
Well-Known Member
It's funny to hear you guys criticize the business decisions of a man worth $23.3 billion. I imagine he knows something you don't. Anyway, what is with all the hate? This is huge boon for advantage players, and I hope it catches on everywhere. With comps disappearing, so too will players cards disappear. I, for one, as a refusal will be happy to stop subsidizing comps through ever-diminishing game conditions.
Casinos are greedy. They feel entitled to every dollar that every customer has, so they're going to go after it all, one way or another. For every dollar they bled in comps, they went after two in the form of higher house edges. This has generally applied to slots, but I'm sure poor blackjack rules can trace their roots to casinos looking to bleed customers for a little extra to help offset their comp losses. Consider that, generally speaking, their comp rates at blackjack are the same regardless of the rules. Playing $100/hand at an H17 table or a S17 is worth the same.
If this sparks a new trend, it has the potential to be one of the best shifts in casino policy for advantage players in the last five years. Unrated players will become a lot more frequent, allowing people like me to blend in better, and table conditions may improve for us when casinos aren't having to cover millions in expenses in the form of comps. I wish comps would disappear entirely, but this is a great first step.
Casinos are greedy. They feel entitled to every dollar that every customer has, so they're going to go after it all, one way or another. For every dollar they bled in comps, they went after two in the form of higher house edges. This has generally applied to slots, but I'm sure poor blackjack rules can trace their roots to casinos looking to bleed customers for a little extra to help offset their comp losses. Consider that, generally speaking, their comp rates at blackjack are the same regardless of the rules. Playing $100/hand at an H17 table or a S17 is worth the same.
If this sparks a new trend, it has the potential to be one of the best shifts in casino policy for advantage players in the last five years. Unrated players will become a lot more frequent, allowing people like me to blend in better, and table conditions may improve for us when casinos aren't having to cover millions in expenses in the form of comps. I wish comps would disappear entirely, but this is a great first step.
zengrifter
Banned
Concur with CM! zg
Dyepaintball12
Well-Known Member
I disagree. I don't think the "no comps" policy will catch on, and I certainly do not think this will lead to "better" games.
Players cards are such an integral part of the casino industry I can't see them just going away. Sure the Venetian can get away with it but then again they never rated anyone who "bet under $25 a hand" (per their players card).
Comps can be hugely +EV if you play rated and I think them disappearing would be a disaster.
Over the last 6 months alone I have been given over $1,000 in free slot play from the Venetian (before it went away), over $2,500 in free cash from a Mid-west casino, and around $1,000 in free bets and matchplay from Harrahs. Speaking of Harrahs, I also just received a free $450 watch from them and tomorrow my friend are going in to pick out a free 7-day cruise.
This does not include any of the free rooms, shows, or dinners I've gotten.
To be fair I usually play with a team with fairly large bets and I haven't been playing "long" compared to others here but this is the way I see it. Also getting backed off isn't that big of a deal for me because I just come back with a new ID a couple months later and I travel a lot.
- Dye
Players cards are such an integral part of the casino industry I can't see them just going away. Sure the Venetian can get away with it but then again they never rated anyone who "bet under $25 a hand" (per their players card).
Comps can be hugely +EV if you play rated and I think them disappearing would be a disaster.
Over the last 6 months alone I have been given over $1,000 in free slot play from the Venetian (before it went away), over $2,500 in free cash from a Mid-west casino, and around $1,000 in free bets and matchplay from Harrahs. Speaking of Harrahs, I also just received a free $450 watch from them and tomorrow my friend are going in to pick out a free 7-day cruise.
This does not include any of the free rooms, shows, or dinners I've gotten.
To be fair I usually play with a team with fairly large bets and I haven't been playing "long" compared to others here but this is the way I see it. Also getting backed off isn't that big of a deal for me because I just come back with a new ID a couple months later and I travel a lot.
- Dye
Craps Master
Well-Known Member
Time will tell. I see this as a positive first step. I just hope casinos can bring themselves to finish what they've started.
LOL.
I suspect that I have made more than that through complete anonymity, and that will only increase if comps disappear.
Dyepaintball12
Well-Known Member
Sure, everyone plays unrated so you will then just stick out because of your bet spread.
And if you get kicked out while still showing a loss you will have nothing to show for the hours you spent playing.
Craps Master
Well-Known Member
I've never been backed off for my bet spread before. As for your other comment, way to be results-oriented.
blackjack avenger
Well-Known Member
The Trend
I think the trend is to raise the threshold where one gets comps, some places now don't register red chip play. There will probably always be competition by casinos and comps offered for higher level players. Also, pit and dealers may not ask for rating cards.
I think the trend is to raise the threshold where one gets comps, some places now don't register red chip play. There will probably always be competition by casinos and comps offered for higher level players. Also, pit and dealers may not ask for rating cards.
moo321
Well-Known Member
It's sort of been this way for awhile at nice Strip casinos or maybe Caesar's and Borg in AC. If you're not bettng at least a quarter, those places probably won't comp you much more than $10 to the coffee shop.
Dyepaintball12
Well-Known Member
What makes you think the games will improve if comps go away? Most people don't even care about quality of games.
I have seen a DD game get taken out because people complained "there was too much shuffling".
blackjack avenger
Well-Known Member
Think We Agree
Yes, comps add value. I don't think anyone disputes this. The question becomes is it worth it in terms of longevity. Some will give up comps for longevity. Some will make negative ev bets for longevity. Some will use a modest spread for longevity. Others will keep bets low. Finally, as you point out some casinos are more generous then others. If a casino does not give much then why leave a paper trail with your name?
Yes, comps add value. I don't think anyone disputes this. The question becomes is it worth it in terms of longevity. Some will give up comps for longevity. Some will make negative ev bets for longevity. Some will use a modest spread for longevity. Others will keep bets low. Finally, as you point out some casinos are more generous then others. If a casino does not give much then why leave a paper trail with your name?
Craps Master
Well-Known Member
Comps are the least valuable of those sacrifices, by far. Someone already cited some numbers ITT of the cashback and coupon value he got. It was around $5000 over the course of six months. Frankly, this is a pittance compared to what an AP can make from the games themselves. The opportunity cost to acquire that ~$5000 in value is simply too high for some of us.
This has the potential to be as great of a change for advantage players as the emergence of 6-to-5 single deck games was years ago. I hope to see comps (at least for table game play) disappear entirely, and I'll be watching with interest to see how this develops.
moo321
Well-Known Member
It's not just the EV of the comps, it's also the aid to your bottom line/risk management that comes from having no cost basis.
In fact, I would argue that the no-cost basis is the primary thing that makes counting a strong business opportunity for someone like me.
Gamblor
Well-Known Member
Nothing new to see hear. Typical corporate suit mentality of penny pinching, getting better results (and bonus) this quarter, in the meantime sacrificing customer relations and long term vitality of the company. Happens ALL the time in the business world.
All these suits will sooner or later get fired anyway once they realize they are hemmoraging cash with their new strategy. Then some genius will come up with a "new" strategy of generously comping players.
All these suits will sooner or later get fired anyway once they realize they are hemmoraging cash with their new strategy. Then some genius will come up with a "new" strategy of generously comping players.
aslan
Well-Known Member
Even back two or three years ago at the MGM Grand, the pit guy said he would not rate me unless I could guarantee him an average bet of $25, and that was at a $15 table.
aslan
Well-Known Member
That should go for 8-deck, too, but in a different way. It seems to take forever for a dealer to shuffle an 8-deck shoe, but true, they don't have to do it as often. It would be nice if that would convince dealers to cut better pen, but usually it's not a call they make on their own.
I like to find the occasional dealer who says, "Rules and policies be damned!"
Hopefully this backlash will last:
Casino revenue tanks after Las Vegas Sands cuts comps
Of course, if they make enough in room, restaurant and entertainment charges, they may not care if gambling suffers.
Casino revenue tanks after Las Vegas Sands cuts comps
Of course, if they make enough in room, restaurant and entertainment charges, they may not care if gambling suffers.
Dyepaintball12
Well-Known Member
Makes perfect sense!
If you're a gambler with a choice between a nice casino that doesn't offer comps, and 20+ other nice casinos that DO, which would you choose?
If you're a gambler with a choice between a nice casino that doesn't offer comps, and 20+ other nice casinos that DO, which would you choose?