Venetian Deal
- Thread starter Jeff Dubya
- Start date
BVUGrad2003
Active Member
Well...not yet...but soon!
I leave on the 12th and am headed straight for the Palazzo!bjcounter said:
aslan
Well-Known Member
The rooms are nice and I had a good time at their indoor pool. but I found the hotel to be a little snobbish. I mean, I'm not Jeff Foxworthy, but I do find snootiness to be a bit uncomfortable.callipygian said:
This trip the Venetian offered me two free nights, and I do like their location, but planet hollywood not only offered me two free nights, but also $50 in match or slot play, $50 in restaurant and buffet comps, and some other goodies, so I'm staying there instead. Plus, I like their blackjack games.
Moo, it would surprise me if the Venetian ever back-roomed anyone. From what I have heard from insiders, they are one of the laxest in table security of all the major casinos on the strip. But no telling what one employee might do if he gets a wild hair up his ____. My guess is that the employee, if it happened, was quickly fired. The one thing I don't like is that they are subject to kick the table minimum up, say, from $25 to $50, without notice, and they will not grandfather you in. I got my nose a little bent out of shape when they pulled this on me one evening when I was stuck a few hundred dollars. No matter. I left, went to another casino, and made up my losses and them some.
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Planet Hollywood !
Planet Hollywood is one of the few properties in Las Vegas that evicted and "trespassed" me.
After barely 20 minutes of play I was read the trespass act and "escorted" right off the grounds !
Their BJ games are poor except for the High Stakes games on the mezzanine.
On the main floor their shoe games are H17 and their DD have shallow depth of penetration.
Their Coffee Shop wins my vote for the BEST Coffee Shop (anywhere) Matchless !
Your mention of The Venetian's lax security I found interesting. I found their penetration so bad (by Las Vegas standards) that they probably are very unlikely to attract any card counters. Their High Limit games looked marginal, but the table minimums were $200.
Planet Hollywood is one of the few properties in Las Vegas that evicted and "trespassed" me.
After barely 20 minutes of play I was read the trespass act and "escorted" right off the grounds !
Their BJ games are poor except for the High Stakes games on the mezzanine.
On the main floor their shoe games are H17 and their DD have shallow depth of penetration.
Their Coffee Shop wins my vote for the BEST Coffee Shop (anywhere) Matchless !
Your mention of The Venetian's lax security I found interesting. I found their penetration so bad (by Las Vegas standards) that they probably are very unlikely to attract any card counters. Their High Limit games looked marginal, but the table minimums were $200.
aslan
Well-Known Member
I'm finding more and more that casinos in general are a moving target.FLASH1296 said:
Interesting that they trespassed you. Whatever for. I didn't know that any strip casino did that except for suspected cheaters. Do they even have a right under Nevada law to trespass someone for card counting? I know the casino grew out of a mob connection with the St. Louis and Detroit mob families in the 1960's, but that is long past.
Penetration varies from day to day, but I haven't played there enough to understand if there is any rhyme or reason to it.
The buffet, especially the breakfast buffet, is maybe the best in Vegas. I hope this continues under the new planet hollywood management.
Last trip I found the pen to be barely passable; last October it was much better, but only in the DD games. The 8 (?) deck games were atrocious.
nottooshabby
Well-Known Member
aslan,aslan said:
What do you like about PH's blackjack games? Last time I was there was H17, DOA, DAS, nRSA, LS, 70-75% pen. All the SD games were 6:5. Maybe I was missing something in the Hi-Limit Pit on the Mezzanine level
Or do you like the games cause of the Pleasure Pit?
nottooshabby
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I think FLASH1296 may have answered my question . . . duhFLASH1296 said:
aslan
Well-Known Member
I do play the pleasure pit, but they need to upgrade the dancers IMO. They are still a distraction however, as well as the dealers. The dealers are more for how they dress than proficiency in the dealing department. What's wrong with 75% pen, although I would like more, if I can just log in a few hours it pays for my rooms on my next visit. Yes, they did allow resplitting of aces, one of the few places that do. So there are no SD games anywhere on the strip that pay better than 6 to 5. The only one I have heard of in Vegas is at the El Cortez downtown. Please tell me if there are more.nottooshabby said:aslan,
What do you like about PH's blackjack games? Last time I was there was H17, DOA, DAS, nRSA, LS, 70-75% pen. All the SD games were 6:5. Maybe I was missing something in the Hi-Limit Pit on the Mezzanine level
Have you tried Mandalay Bay for DD. Decent pen last time I was there. I played there all night and won several hundred, can't remember what exactly but I reported it here on the Forum I believe.
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Casino Trespassing - Clarification
"I'm finding more and more that casinos in general are a moving target."
What exactly do you mean by moving target ? That nowadays the "cat and mouse game" of Card Counting requires ever more skill at being adroit, mobile, and vigilant, etc ?
"Interesting that they trespassed you. Whatever for. I didn't know that any strip casino did that except for suspected cheaters. Do they even have a right under Nevada law to trespass someone for card counting?"
Card Counters get "trespassed" under two circumstances, firstly returning to play BJ after they were 86'd. Secondly, Card Counters who have attempted to play BJ at high stakes. Often, where the barring morphs into a "trespassing" is at the discretion of the Casino Shift Manager. Each casino has its own "choke point" as to what level of play makes them "sweat" Trespassing at Harrah's Properties are patricularly commonplace. In Sept. a jury in Mississippi awarded a nice judgement of nearly 3/4 of a million bux to a Card Counter who was "backroomed", meaning that he was briefly detained and treated rudely. This happens typically several times a year. Walking down the strip, I walk by more than one place where I can only enter the property at my own peril, where I am subject to arrest. In all 50 states this is completely within the rights of the owner/operator of any public space, e.g. Casino, Hotel, Resort, Restaurant, Nightclub, Restaurant, etc. It grows out of our system of Juris Prudence that was spawned by British "Common Law" wherein it has existed for centuries as the ancient "InnKeeper's Law" haven't you ever seen well-heeled 'yuppies' bribing the bouncer with cold hard cash to avoid being being denied access at the red velvet rope outside night clubs simply because they weren't "beautiful people" In the U.S.A. Last year I recall seeing on T.V. a restaurant manager being interviewed after 86'ing O.J. Simpson saying "I do not need any reason to refuse him service. This is private property." Re: hotel/casinos, trespassing, (without the commission of a crime), generally results in a night in jail and a fine being levied for the misdemeanor conviction. Incidentally it is conceivable that one could claim that their banishment from the casino was a Civil Rights Violation that stemmed from prejudicial attitudes re: race, gender, religion, or sexual preference. I have never seen such a claim upheld.
"Penetration varies from day to day, but I haven't played there enough to understand if there is any rhyme or reason to it."
In most venues the penetration is ordinarily "set" at the discretion of the Casino Shift Manager, or by his designees, the Pit Managers (rarely the Pit Bosses); and the "pen'" may or may not vary by dealer. That is why there is often found fairly distinct differences by shift. Also, weekends may differ from weekdays. I know one well-known property in Las Vegas where one of the shifts deals DD with 67%-75% pen' and the other two shifts you are lucky to see 50% of the cards.
"Last trip I found the pen to be barely passable; last October it was much better, but only in the DD games. The 8 (?) deck games were atrocious."
Shoe games, especially with the onerous H17 rule, needs to have less than 25% cut off in order to be even barely mediocre - meaning that (with skilled play coupled with a big bankroll and a wide bet spread), can be somewhat advantageous.
"I'm finding more and more that casinos in general are a moving target."
What exactly do you mean by moving target ? That nowadays the "cat and mouse game" of Card Counting requires ever more skill at being adroit, mobile, and vigilant, etc ?
"Interesting that they trespassed you. Whatever for. I didn't know that any strip casino did that except for suspected cheaters. Do they even have a right under Nevada law to trespass someone for card counting?"
Card Counters get "trespassed" under two circumstances, firstly returning to play BJ after they were 86'd. Secondly, Card Counters who have attempted to play BJ at high stakes. Often, where the barring morphs into a "trespassing" is at the discretion of the Casino Shift Manager. Each casino has its own "choke point" as to what level of play makes them "sweat" Trespassing at Harrah's Properties are patricularly commonplace. In Sept. a jury in Mississippi awarded a nice judgement of nearly 3/4 of a million bux to a Card Counter who was "backroomed", meaning that he was briefly detained and treated rudely. This happens typically several times a year. Walking down the strip, I walk by more than one place where I can only enter the property at my own peril, where I am subject to arrest. In all 50 states this is completely within the rights of the owner/operator of any public space, e.g. Casino, Hotel, Resort, Restaurant, Nightclub, Restaurant, etc. It grows out of our system of Juris Prudence that was spawned by British "Common Law" wherein it has existed for centuries as the ancient "InnKeeper's Law" haven't you ever seen well-heeled 'yuppies' bribing the bouncer with cold hard cash to avoid being being denied access at the red velvet rope outside night clubs simply because they weren't "beautiful people" In the U.S.A. Last year I recall seeing on T.V. a restaurant manager being interviewed after 86'ing O.J. Simpson saying "I do not need any reason to refuse him service. This is private property." Re: hotel/casinos, trespassing, (without the commission of a crime), generally results in a night in jail and a fine being levied for the misdemeanor conviction. Incidentally it is conceivable that one could claim that their banishment from the casino was a Civil Rights Violation that stemmed from prejudicial attitudes re: race, gender, religion, or sexual preference. I have never seen such a claim upheld.
"Penetration varies from day to day, but I haven't played there enough to understand if there is any rhyme or reason to it."
In most venues the penetration is ordinarily "set" at the discretion of the Casino Shift Manager, or by his designees, the Pit Managers (rarely the Pit Bosses); and the "pen'" may or may not vary by dealer. That is why there is often found fairly distinct differences by shift. Also, weekends may differ from weekdays. I know one well-known property in Las Vegas where one of the shifts deals DD with 67%-75% pen' and the other two shifts you are lucky to see 50% of the cards.
"Last trip I found the pen to be barely passable; last October it was much better, but only in the DD games. The 8 (?) deck games were atrocious."
Shoe games, especially with the onerous H17 rule, needs to have less than 25% cut off in order to be even barely mediocre - meaning that (with skilled play coupled with a big bankroll and a wide bet spread), can be somewhat advantageous.
aslan
Well-Known Member
What exactly do you mean by moving target ? That nowadays the "cat and mouse game" of Card Counting requires ever more skill at being adroit, mobile, and vigilant, etc ?
What I mean is that you can't judge a casino by a few experiences there. They are constantly changing. Case in point, Borgata in AC has a policy of less pen when big money is playing. Their regular pen is supposed to be about two decks plus a few cards, or 65%, yet I have seen it to be anywhere from 60% to 85%, I'm not exaggerating, on the same shift. I'm guessing that some dealers may be counters themselves and sympathetic to counters because of it. Others seem to be wise enough to be counters themselves, yet try to stick it to any counters at the table by ridiculous pen. Also, some may be looking to encourage tips. I agree that more often than not, pen is shift or casino dependent, yet I am always on the lookout for particular dealers where the pen is consistently good.
Also, the rules change. I was steered to the Hilton in Vegas, because they had a good DD game. During the course of play, I tried to double down on a split hand, which was refused. The pb came over and explained no dd after splitting at the Hilton. I asked, where's the sign? He said there was none; just no dd after splitting at the Hilton. He went on to say that the Hilton used to have a decent game, but that management now did not believe in gambling. Honest, he did. He advised me to try the Riviera across the street for a better game. Honest he did. Which I did, and liked it. lol
Card Counters get "trespassed" under two circumstances, firstly returning to play BJ after they were 86'd. Secondly, Card Counters who have attempted to play BJ at high stakes. Often, where the barring morphs into a "trespassing" is at the discretion of the Casino Shift Manager. Each casino has its own "choke point" as to what level of play makes them "sweat" Trespassing at Harrah's Properties are patricularly commonplace. .......... It grows out of our system of Juris Prudence that was spawned by British "Common Law" wherein it has existed for centuries as the ancient "InnKeeper's Law" .......... Re: hotel/casinos, trespassing, (without the commission of a crime), generally results in a night in jail and a fine being levied for the misdemeanor conviction...........
I guess what you're saying is that any retailer anywhere can trespass you without reason or for any reason and it's legal. Therefore, it does not have to be about counting at all. I don't know the law myself, but I do know that a certain court case in AC said you can't be barred from play for counting in AC casinos. In Vegas the court ruled that it was legal, but that a casino could refuse service to anyone without cause. In AC, the common occurrence is to get half-shoe-ed if they determine you are counting. In Vegas, the practice varies. At the Bellagio, they may tell you you can't play. If you persist, the pb will instruct the dealer to deal around you. Other shops may bar you from the premises. Different strokes for different folks
Shoe games, especially with the onerous H17 rule, needs to have less than 25% cut off in order to be even barely mediocre - meaning that (with skilled play coupled with a big bankroll and a wide bet spread), can be somewhat advantageous.
You sound like zg. I think Snyder might say 70%, but I could be wrong.
What I mean is that you can't judge a casino by a few experiences there. They are constantly changing. Case in point, Borgata in AC has a policy of less pen when big money is playing. Their regular pen is supposed to be about two decks plus a few cards, or 65%, yet I have seen it to be anywhere from 60% to 85%, I'm not exaggerating, on the same shift. I'm guessing that some dealers may be counters themselves and sympathetic to counters because of it. Others seem to be wise enough to be counters themselves, yet try to stick it to any counters at the table by ridiculous pen. Also, some may be looking to encourage tips. I agree that more often than not, pen is shift or casino dependent, yet I am always on the lookout for particular dealers where the pen is consistently good.
Also, the rules change. I was steered to the Hilton in Vegas, because they had a good DD game. During the course of play, I tried to double down on a split hand, which was refused. The pb came over and explained no dd after splitting at the Hilton. I asked, where's the sign? He said there was none; just no dd after splitting at the Hilton. He went on to say that the Hilton used to have a decent game, but that management now did not believe in gambling. Honest, he did. He advised me to try the Riviera across the street for a better game. Honest he did. Which I did, and liked it. lol
Card Counters get "trespassed" under two circumstances, firstly returning to play BJ after they were 86'd. Secondly, Card Counters who have attempted to play BJ at high stakes. Often, where the barring morphs into a "trespassing" is at the discretion of the Casino Shift Manager. Each casino has its own "choke point" as to what level of play makes them "sweat" Trespassing at Harrah's Properties are patricularly commonplace. .......... It grows out of our system of Juris Prudence that was spawned by British "Common Law" wherein it has existed for centuries as the ancient "InnKeeper's Law" .......... Re: hotel/casinos, trespassing, (without the commission of a crime), generally results in a night in jail and a fine being levied for the misdemeanor conviction...........
I guess what you're saying is that any retailer anywhere can trespass you without reason or for any reason and it's legal. Therefore, it does not have to be about counting at all. I don't know the law myself, but I do know that a certain court case in AC said you can't be barred from play for counting in AC casinos. In Vegas the court ruled that it was legal, but that a casino could refuse service to anyone without cause. In AC, the common occurrence is to get half-shoe-ed if they determine you are counting. In Vegas, the practice varies. At the Bellagio, they may tell you you can't play. If you persist, the pb will instruct the dealer to deal around you. Other shops may bar you from the premises. Different strokes for different folks
Shoe games, especially with the onerous H17 rule, needs to have less than 25% cut off in order to be even barely mediocre - meaning that (with skilled play coupled with a big bankroll and a wide bet spread), can be somewhat advantageous.
You sound like zg. I think Snyder might say 70%, but I could be wrong.
SystemsTrader
Well-Known Member
The pleasure pit is great cover for backcounters, as you just come across to the pit as a "dirty old man" watching the girls then you want to jump into a table to play blackjack with that cleavage in your face. The biggest problem there is the max $200 on mid-shoe entry bets!aslan said:
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
L o l
asian,
I got a chuckle out of your saying "You sound like zg." - I refer to myself as a ZEN MASTER - as I have used the great ZEN COUNT for almost all of the 25 yrs. since the ZEN COUNT was first published by Arnold Snyder in the original 1983 edition of "Blackbelt in Blackjack"
The most recent edition was massively expanded, and although I do not like the heavily rounded indices that Snyder has dubbed "True Edge", I still highly recommend it to newbies who want to learn to be effective profit-generating Card Counters at today's shoe games. Future editions of BB in BJ are extremely unlikely as Snyder now publishes Poker Books,
asian,
I got a chuckle out of your saying "You sound like zg." - I refer to myself as a ZEN MASTER - as I have used the great ZEN COUNT for almost all of the 25 yrs. since the ZEN COUNT was first published by Arnold Snyder in the original 1983 edition of "Blackbelt in Blackjack"
The most recent edition was massively expanded, and although I do not like the heavily rounded indices that Snyder has dubbed "True Edge", I still highly recommend it to newbies who want to learn to be effective profit-generating Card Counters at today's shoe games. Future editions of BB in BJ are extremely unlikely as Snyder now publishes Poker Books,
callipygian
Well-Known Member
... if you're not Wonging. If you're playing shoe games on the Vegas Strip, there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be at least Wonging out on negative counts, and very little reason why you shouldn't be Wonging in.FLASH1296 said:
I can't remember exactly, but I believe Wonging in at +1 and Wonging out at -1 will give you a miniscule edge even if you never spread your bet at 75% penetration and standard MGM rules. Lower penetration (even as low as 66%) can be pretty easily beaten with higher Wonging limits and a modest bet spread.
nottooshabby
Well-Known Member
aslan,aslan said:
Thanks for the tip regarding Mandalay Bay's DD game
Will definitely check it out next weekend.