"We made a business decision..."

ZeeBabar

Banned
This weekend, at a lesser casino of a major chain in LV, I made a huge mistake. I normally have played using a players card and doing short sessions. However, in this one place I arrived, the walk from the parking lot, the breezy cold outside in the early morning and a quick downhill drop of about $1600 made me stay and try to recoup. I knew I was likely making a mistake, the pit was an old lady not paying much attention to me. A big player on another table was attracting much attention. I kept going up and down after going down $1600, then mostly fluctuating between $200 and $1100. I guess I just wanted to get to even and head to the airport.

The thought of walking back to the parking lot, driving to another casino when I had just 3 hours before I had to go return my rental car, and so I stayed. Played about 3-4 hours. Then I saw a suit talking at gthe pit desk. He looked at me but since I was losing and there were a couple of big players at another table betting blacks and winning, I assumed he had come for one of those.

In any case, he comes to my table, leans close to me, he points to my two hands (both had $25 each), says 'I am the casino manager, we have made a business decision and we will not allow you to raise your bets while playing Blackjack. You can stay and play but you cannot raise your bets".

I had thought of the possibilities and had all sorts of stuff I would say (I play streaks, switch from one to two hands to change flow, lower my bet after a BJ etc.,) but at that moment, all I said was 'ok". After the next hand, I left, changed my chips at the cashier and walked out.

I did go to its casino in MS and used the card without any problem so I am assuming, they did not do anything to change anything. They did not back me off, let alone trespass me.

My trip of 3 days to Las Vegas went okay. Played about 15 hours, won about $1500 after playing 18 sessions, and after expenses, probably won $900.

Given all the comments on the other thread and this experience, I think I will play anonymously in the future. I will take a break from Las Vegas for about 2-3 months and avoid a couple of places where they might recognize me.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
While I am not surprised to read this account of events, I am sorry this occurred. What makes it not a total loss, is if you can learn from this experience. :)

A couple thoughts:

If it is a chain, as you mentioned, you should consider yourself extremely fortunate if this incident doesn't follow you to other properties of the chain. It still could. I wouldn't 'assume' anything based on no trouble at one casino, but hopefully, you avoided the bullet on this one.

Flat-betting, is an unusual counter-measure in vegas. I don't think I have ever received a "flat bet" in vegas. I did in AC, but in vegas, all my countermeasures have been polite (to some extent) backoffs. except for one incident prior to relocating here, that I recently described.

It is just as well, you didn't say any of the stuff that you had prepared. It wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference anyway. Once they get to the point that they are implementing some sort of counter measure, whether flat betting, backoff or baring, they KNOW what is going on. You aren't going to convince them otherwise or talk them out of anything. Any attempt to do so, only makes you more memorable. My play is to just move on, as quietly and quickly as possible, not drawing any additional attention to myself. Sort of a 'retreat and live to fight another day' mentality.
 
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Ryemo

Well-Known Member
My very first “BO” ever was at Mandalay Bay in Vegas, and it was also a flat bet. I was much lower stakes at that time. I think I was probably betting $150-$200 per hand. If Zee got flat bet at an MLife property, he’ll have no choice but to play unrated with the entire chain. Unlike some other chains, this one incident will follow him to every other MLife property (including properties outside of Vegas). Their system is much more sophisticated than other chains.

Can’t say we didn’t warn you, Zee.
 

ZeeBabar

Banned
Kewlj, as an example, if Ceaser's palace is comping a player hotel rooms and other Ceaser's properties in MS are providing the player $100 free table play and other offers, a smaller casino of that chain is not likely to over-rule those casinos and bar the player from the chain. Its also possible that the spread is so modest, the player is camped there and perhaps appearing to not be a counter (old, foreign, genial, good story) that there may be some doubts.

A player might be staying in a comped suite in MGM, could that same player than be kicked out by Excalibur at their low stakes game and barred from M life?

In my case, perhaps there was reasonable doubt. Now, if I had been playing unrated, they just might have backed me off.
 

mcallister3200

Active Member
ZeeBabar said:
Kewlj, as an example, if Ceaser's palace is comping a player hotel rooms and other Ceaser's properties in MS are providing the player $100 free table play and other offers, a smaller casino of that chain is not likely to over-rule those casinos and bar the player from the chain. Its also possible that the spread is so modest, the player is camped there and perhaps appearing to not be a counter (old, foreign, genial, good story) that there may be some doubts.

A player might be staying in a comped suite in MGM, could that same player than be kicked out by Excalibur at their low stakes game and barred from M life?

In my case, perhaps there was reasonable doubt. Now, if I had been playing unrated, they just might have backed me off.
First paragraph is dangerous. Just pretending and making up fictitious ridiculous situations you have zero clue about is dangerous to newer players/members of the forum who do not know that you are you.

Last paragraph, how in the hell are you going to pretend and continue try to justify playing rated as a good idea in a session you were flat bet on, really? Or even worse to use it at another property without knowledge just to see what happens if that's what you're saying. Just ridiculously absurd trolling I have to believe, there is no other possible explanation, I simply cannot believe that that sort of thought process actually exists in an adult brain.

Idk how I put myself reading this again and again, the train wreck effect I guess.
 
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mcallister3200

Active Member
That was a little harsh Zee, I kinda sorta half ass apologize. But come on man, you have GOT to stop leading with your chin.
 

ZeeBabar

Banned
mcallister3200 said:
That was a little harsh Zee, I kinda sorta half ass apologize. But come on man, you have GOT to stop leading with your chin.
I was flat bet at one casino. It was not a back off, it was not them telling me I cannot play BJ, so I went over to another of the casino chain, have them my players card and they neither flat bet me or backed me off. I even asked them if they could see how much I lost at another of their casinos and they said, they cannot access my playing record at other casinos and because of that,I could not transfer points and purchase at their casino.

Bottom line was that I was checking whether I should rule out trips to other casinos of the chain and the answer is that the damage was not quite as bad.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
ZeeBabar said:
I even asked them if they could see how much I lost at another of their casinos and they said, they cannot access my playing record at other casinos and because of that,I could not transfer points and purchase at their casino.

Bottom line was that I was checking whether I should rule out trips to other casinos of the chain and the answer is that the damage was not quite as bad.
OMG! You are alerting them to go looking at your history, looking for record of countermeasures? Zee, just save everyone the trouble and tattoo card counter on your forehead.
 

ZeeBabar

Banned
It's over and it was succesful. I found out that it was a local decision without repercussions elsewhere. It means my comped rooms for my family visit during Christmas Break at another casino in the chain are still valid.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
ZeeBabar said:
I found out that it was a local decision without repercussions elsewhere. It means my comped rooms for my family visit during Christmas Break at another casino in the chain are still valid.
You do know that there is nothing guaranteed about comped rooms, right? The casino can pull them at anytime (including check-in) for any reason.

Quick story. When I first moved to Vegas, I lived in a highrise condo, a block off mid strip. I privately rented out my condo for 4 weekends a year, NYE, Superbowl weekend, valentines day weekend and St Patrick day/March madness (usually same weekend). Renting out those 4 weekends paid my mortgage for the whole year!

So for those 4 weekends I stayed at comped rooms at evil empire properties, usually Flamingo. So one New Years Eve weekend, I show up at Flamingo, with my comped room offer and confirmation number in hand, only to have the offer pulled...not honored. Being a major holiday weekend, I had to scramble to find accommodations. I ended up staying at terribles, (now Silver Sevens), not comped, but at a 'reduced' price which still significantly ate into my proit margin. Afterwards, I fired off a rather nasty letter to Flamingo, and received a reply that they are under no obligation to honor comps, nor even explain their decision. :(
 

Good Guy

Active Member
If you were flat bet in M-life properties, it will appear in the computer everywhere. However, in some casinos they just write your info on a piece of paper and not go to the computer, so you can play several sessions until they look for the information. Rest assured that your your M-life card is no longer good for BJ. Flat bet is just a less-confrontational way for a backoff and quite often is translated to a back off in another properties. For example, M. Bay always flat bet. Take that card and go to Bellagio, they will say you cannot play BJ.
 

ZeeBabar

Banned
Good Guy said:
If you were flat bet in M-life properties, it will appear in the computer everywhere. However, in some casinos they just write your info on a piece of paper and not go to the computer, so you can play several sessions until they look for the information. Rest assured that your your M-life card is no longer good for BJ. Flat bet is just a less-confrontational way for a backoff and quite often is translated to a back off in another properties. For example, M. Bay always flat bet. Take that card and go to Bellagio, they will say you cannot play BJ.
Why would MLife at MGM or Bellagio accept that a decision at Excalibur to flat bet mean that they should no longer allow a whale whom they consider as a lousy player to play there? Especially if the decisionmaker at Excalibur is a moron?
 

Good Guy

Active Member
ZeeBabar said:
Why would MLife at MGM or Bellagio accept that a decision at Excalibur to flat bet mean that they should no longer allow a whale whom they consider as a lousy player to play there? Especially if the decisionmaker at Excalibur is a moron?
They almost always do, but you have a point. Sometimes, if your card is flagged in a sweaty or out of town place, they will watch for a while. It will not then take long to determine the outcome and in any way your card is not coming back to good status.
Also a common misconception that if someone is betting big and they are watching him, you might be ok. More often a person betting big in a small place means he had been vetted and ok for him to play big. They only watching the money flow and for dealer's errors.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
ZeeBabar said:
Why would MLife at MGM or Bellagio accept that a decision at Excalibur to flat bet mean that they should no longer allow a whale whom they consider as a lousy player to play there? Especially if the decisionmaker at Excalibur is a moron?
Call them and ask.
 

ZeeBabar

Banned
21forme said:
Call them and ask.
I don't have to call them and ask, I just called, provided my card number, they comped me a room on my next visit, also provide $75 in table play, every two weeks.

One casino flat bet me, it's sister casinos still want me.
 

Good Guy

Active Member
Information about back off or flat betting is generally not available to people answering the phone and does not generally affect low level comps. For high stake players, the casino sometimes make a point by restricting future offers. So, what you described has nothing to do with whether or not your card is flagged for the property.
 

Ryemo

Well-Known Member
ZeeBabar said:
I don't have to call them and ask, I just called, provided my card number, they comped me a room on my next visit, also provide $75 in table play, every two weeks.

One casino flat bet me, it's sister casinos still want me.
Wow... I don’t even know what to say here...

You really have to learn everything the hard way, right?
 

Ryemo

Well-Known Member
Ryemo said:
Wow... I don’t even know what to say here...

You really have to learn everything the hard way, right?
I retract that statement, because it implies that you actually learned something.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
It really is very sad Ryemo. In an way it is almost insulting to all of us that have bent over backwards, showing patience far beyond what anyone could reasonably expect. o_O

The thing is, we learn from experiences...mostly mistakes. But it doesn't have to be our own mistakes and experiences. We can and should learn from other players mistakes and experiences. Zee refuses to take advantage of that resource, of other experienced members sharing their experiences including mistakes. He really has to do everything the hard way! :rolleyes:
 

ZeeBabar

Banned
Get off your high horses. None of you have played rated and with players card in a decade or longer. None of you are casino or ex-casino folks with knowledge of the decision process in the casinos. For 3-4 years, all you repeat to every newbie is to not play with a card. You get paranoid and think these forums are full of casino folks and scope people like me for revealing too much.

I ignored your advice on playing rated for most of 4 years and, playing mostly rated, went from $15k to $56k in BR while playing part time.

While it is true that the time may have come for me to play anonymously, I and other newbies can benefit from playing rated while playing at lower stakes. My trips to LV, Biloxi, Tunica, and other places were affordable because of comped rooms and not sleeping in cars or Walmart.

I prefer to test it out so I am going back this weekend to a casino of the chain that flat bet me, with a comped room (reservations were made yesterday). Maybe I am wrong but I am convinced that the flat bet decision was a local one.

While on issues of playing BJ, 80% of what I learned are from pros like you on the forum, I know of a lot of pros who have given advice I ignored (like telling me HiLo will not work in today's game).
 
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