What flow?/ flow conspriacy

[blackchipjim]

I think after this weekend playing in the local casinos I have heard that phrase over and over again. I heard dealers,Yes dealers talk about flow and how it can be messed up. I look at one dealer like he was from Mars and started to laugh almost uncontrolably. I finally asked him what in the heck are you smoking. He started to explain how the people who jump around from table to table for a few hands disrupts the flow. I even heard a floorman back him up which at this point was a good time to act like a great revelation was handed to me. I know there have been threads before about this and this being linked to ploppy play logic. This is starting to become epidemic when casino personnal start coming up with flow logic. I geuss if they can proliforate flow logic 6:5 blackjack isn't too far behind. blackchipjim

 

[ChefJJ]

I remember when I first turned 21 and played BJ at the casino the first few times...and I remember the superstitions of the flow, people jumping in would ruin it, a full table is better for the players, etc. Now I think it is total crapola, and realize that many dealers are just as superstitious as many players out there!

good luck

 

[Brutus]

ya gotta go with the flow!

as a rule, I never offer advice about the mechanics of playing at the casino.
-or- make any kind of judgement about others play.

if the "flow" is important to others play, go with it.

Play your game.


the dealers are usually clueless slugs/slugettes.
dont worry about them either.

 

[sabre]

Laughing at dealers who explain "the flow" isn't going to produce any beneficial result.

I think "the flow" is a great asset to card counters. When you're at a short table near the end of a positive shoe, invoke "the flow" when another player tries to jump in. Offer to let him backline your bet if available. Most players are happy to wait for the next shoe, especially if you're betting substantially more than they would. (which is likely if you're pushing out 10+ unit bets) Need to wong out of a bad shoe? Sit out a few hands to "change the flow" after you lose a hand, or after the dealer fails to bust a stiff.

Challenging the flow is a clear sign that you're letting your ego get in the way of profit. Your goal shouldn't be to show that you are smarter than everyone else at the table. Your goal is to win.

Also, I doubt that the flow is a new concept. I've always assumed that it's as old as the game itself.

 

[rogue1]

the dealers

they are most often,not always,ploppies on the other side of the table.

 

[shadroch]

Returning from my last trip from Vegas,I sat next to a guy who claimed he was a regular $25-50 BJ player. He got got animated when I expressed the opinion that a players decsions had no effect on the rest of the table.To prove that I was wrong,he pointed out that if the flow wasn't so important,why did casinos ban mid-shoe entry if not to protect the flow for the players already seated.When I tried to explain that that procedure was to protect the casino from card counters,he said that everyone knew that no-one could count a multi-deck game and that I'd been watching too many movies.

 

[EasyRhino]

he said that everyone knew that no-one could count a multi-deck game

Man, he burned you hard.

 

[ihate17]

the sacred, mighty flow of the cards

As you were told earlier, never take the name of the sacred flow in vain. The power of the flow is beyond reproach, the inteligence of these coated pieces of paper that we call cards is directed to perform to a pre ordained result by the mighty flow and messing with it will cause tragedy to all.

No, you must let all around you know that you observantly love the flow and use it carefully. The flow will tell you it is time to spread to two or more hands. The flow will tell you it is time to take a restroom break. Though in your heart you are nothing but a heritic, if you wish to not be singled out as a non believer and subjected to a casino run inquisition, you must let all believe that you are a true believer.

Why dealers also quote the power of the flow:
First off, most dealers learned everything they know about the strategy of the game from the superstitious players that play the game, so they mimic them.
Importantly, dealers get blamed by these same superstitious players when things go bad. In the real world, all the dealer is doing is pulling the next card out of the shoe and if that is all they do, they should not be blamed for anything. Dealers quickly learn that if they can find someone/something else to blame, it keeps a losing table friendlier than just saying "all I did was pull the next card out." So the guy who jumped in, played a hand or two and left is blamed. Sometimes they will blame someone who is still on the table, sacrificing him, instead of themselves to the angry mob. The dealer only wants to get through his day and get tokes along the way. Easier to do both if the table is not pissed at him, so deflect to the flow.

Then there is me.
ihate17---the aniti flow (just kidding, please do not burn me at the stake)

 

[21forme]

I've had players get upset with me for playing a second hand (when the count goes up) without getting permission from the table. They change their bets, sit out a hand, etc. to reinstate the flow.

 

[hotroddy]

I got in quite the animated discussion the other day with one of my friends' at his house. He knows how to play basic blackjack, not basic strategy, but doesn't play very often. I was telling him a story about how one lady a few nights before, berated a young kid for three decks when he split his 10's against a dealer 6 (obviously he shouldn't have done it, but he didn't know better and before anyone at the table could tell him it wasn't a good play, the dealer already dealt the cards) and messed up the flow.

I finally told her to shut up, he paid his money so he can play however he wants, and that if she thinks there is a sacred flow of the cards then it doesn't matter if someone messed it up because she'd lose all her money eventually anyways. The friend that I was telling this to completely agreed with her, and said the kid messed up the flow for everyone else. Not her doubling on a 7 or 8, standing on 8's, or splitting 4's against a 2, it was purely this kids' fault. After trying to explain to him that there is no "sacred flow", and a person doing that is going to help you just as many times as hurt you, he still refused to believe. Damn ploppy friends.

 

[ScottH]

Returning from my last trip from Vegas,I sat next to a guy who claimed he was a regular $25-50 BJ player. He got got animated when I expressed the opinion that a players decsions had no effect on the rest of the table.To prove that I was wrong,he pointed out that if the flow wasn't so important,why did casinos ban mid-shoe entry if not to protect the flow for the players already seated.When I tried to explain that that procedure was to protect the casino from card counters,he said that everyone knew that no-one could count a multi-deck game and that I'd been watching too many movies.

There is no good reason to edcuate a ploppy by talking about things that only good players would know. It can only hurt you.

 

[dacium]

EVERY time I sit in on a game of at least 4 players, someone pulls their money out and then bitches like crazy when I steal their blackjack.

 

[OregonRick]

flow!

There is no good reason to edcuate a ploppy by talking about things that only good players would know. It can only hurt you.

I do my best to sound like a ploppy at the table. If the count drops and I want to sit out a few hands to see if it will go back up, I just tell them that I am going to try and change the flow of the cards.

 

[Persnickety1]

Let's not laugh at other people

I think after this weekend playing in the local casinos I have heard that phrase over and over again. I heard dealers,Yes dealers talk about flow and how it can be messed up. I look at one dealer like he was from Mars and started to laugh almost uncontrolably. I finally asked him what in the heck are you smoking. He started to explain how the people who jump around from table to table for a few hands disrupts the flow. I even heard a floorman back him up which at this point was a good time to act like a great revelation was handed to me. I know there have been threads before about this and this being linked to ploppy play logic. This is starting to become epidemic when casino personnal start coming up with flow logic. I geuss if they can proliforate flow logic 6:5 blackjack isn't too far behind. blackchipjim

The actions of one player do affect the outcome of the game every time, it is a fact. Doesn't matter where the player is sitting, whether or not the player plays by Basic Strategy, whether or not the player likes to wong, the decision of one player affects what cards other players and the dealer will receive.

There are billions of people in this world whose religious or personal believes include "Karma", "Feng Shui", "positive vs. negative energy", "the law of cause and effect".

Who are we to ridicule a Buddhist for genuinely believing that the decision coming from a person with "bad Karma" might tend to affect the cards in a less then desirable way?

Who are we to ridicule a person who thinks of himself as "unlucky" and thinks the gods of probability and statistics chose to bite him in the ass?

Not everyone believes that there is a 50/50 chance for the action of your neighbor to help your cards rather than hurt you. Maybe "luck" or "Karma" has something to do with it. I don't think we should make fun of them just because they believe in "Feng Shui", or they think the "flow can be disrupted by evil".

Besides, about half the vocal ploppies are just wannabe Advantage Players in disguise, putting on a show for camouflage purposes.

 

[Mimosine]

Besides, about half the vocal ploppies are just wannabe Advantage Players in disguise, putting on a show for camouflage purposes.

then answer me this: why doesn't that half ever vary their bet according to their advantage?

the answer: because there are far more people at the table who actually believe this line of logic whole-heartedly. Even dealers get involved in this like others have said. Whether the dealers believe it or not doesn't matter as their play isn't governed by the logic.

 

[Monkey!Boy]

Maybe "luck" or "Karma" has something to do with it. I don't think we should make fun of them just because they believe in "Feng Shui", or they think the "flow can be disrupted by evil".

If you honestly belive that there is some kind of mystical power that controls the outcome of your play, you are simply never going to play at an advantage, and I urge you in strongest terms not to bring any significant amount of money to a casino. Give that money to charity if you're worried about your karma, search the ground for pennies if you're looking for luck.

I do think that it's extremely unwise (and almost always useless) to try to argue ploppies out of their beliefs at the table, though I have tried to do it in their terms when the situation has seemed right. For example, "Maybe you're right, but last time I was at the Borgata, there was this guy who kept splitting tens and the whole table won like crazy all night!" Won't set off as much squawking and could maybe plant that seed of doubt if you're dealing with one of the brighter ones.

My favorite story about a flow-obsessed ploppy took place in a fancy place in the strip. A youngish woman broke away from an argument with her boyfriend and bought in to my table. She was playing the minimum and I was playing multiple greens in a rising count. As the count peaked, I spread to two spots. The dealer hit a stiff for 21 and she started bitching and complaining to the third guy at the table. I shrugged it off, put out another pair of max bets on the next round and split and doubled several times-- I had at least a grand on the table. She turns to me, stares me down, and says, "I hope you lose." I of course won every bet and left the table up multiple purples; I wouldn't be surprised if she's still there, buying in with another handfull of tens and twenties every half hour or so.

 

[rogue1]

take them all with a grain of salt

and just remember "They're out there Scully."

 

[Mimosine]

I do think that it's extremely unwise (and almost always useless) to try to argue ploppies out of their beliefs at the table, though I have tried to do it in their terms when the situation has seemed right.

i see no point in arguing with STRANGERS about their "beliefs" or views on flow or any other such nonsense. It can only increase tension at the table and/or make you look more knowledgeable than you might want to let on.

maybe as MB suggests there are times when it seems right, and if it is advantageous to do so, then go for it, otherwise i try to abide by the following guideline:

at the table i've got nothing to prove to anyone, except myself.

 

[rogue1]

the best reply

Ploppy: "The sacred order of the cards 'ya know"
Me: "Hey,there 'ya go!."

Ploppy: "How about that Oswald shooting the President from that 6th floor Book Depository window ey.?"
Me: "Hey,there 'ya go!."

Ploppy: " The planet Earth is flat 'ya know, that's how come we got so many missing people and airplanes and such."
Me: "Hey, there 'ya go!."

Ploppy: "We're all born sinners and we'd better repent real soon 'cuz Jesus is coming back real soon and if you don't repent you will go to everlasting HELL and live with the Devil."
Me: "Hey,there 'ya go!"

 

[Sonny]

Ploppy: "We're all born sinners and we'd better repent real soon 'cuz Jesus is coming back real soon and if you don't repent you will go to everlasting HELL and live with the Devil."

Sinners repent! You're all going to Harrahs!!

-Sonny-