Where can I find a double down for less strategy?

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

im looking for a strategy for doubling for less, or perhaps some tables on hit/stand/split/double would help me? im not sure.. if your thinking, "it is bad to double for less", then read this..

this excerpt is from an article on scavenger play http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/scavengerbjfo.pdf
Traditional
basic strategy has an articial dichotomy|full doubling or not at all|that must be dismissed.
Our generalized approach to basic strategy will answer a dierent question: At what additional
wager amount will doubling produce the same expectation as not doubling? For instance, instead of
saying, \Basic strategy is to double A2 v. 5 (6-deck S17)," we will now say, \The critical doubling
fraction for A2 v. 5 (6-deck S17) is 0.964." This means that if we double for 96.4% of our original bet,
doubling will produce the same expectation as hitting. If we double for more than this fraction|
for instance, doubling for the full amount|then doubling is the expectation-maximizing play, over
hitting

the doubles in basic strategy, yes you double for the full, but there are times when doubling for less are better than hitting or doubling for full, probably with such hands as A2 vs 4 or something next to another double on the bs chart

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

nvm

note to self: read the entire article before you have a question

sentences later after i posted the above, it said this..

The tables following report the critical fractions, in thousandths, for doubling down. Since these
"indices" advise the expectation-maximizer to double for the specified amount or more, we rounded
the fractions up to the nearest thousandth. So, doubling for exactly the amount shown will produce
a slightly higher expectation than the alternative play.

the end of the article has lengthy tables on this

 

[Sonny]

note to self: read the entire article before you have a question

Good lesson. I often read through an article several times before posting about it. Sometimes I find the answers I’m looking for, and other times I find more questions to ask. Either way it always helps to be familiar with the article first.

-Sonny-

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

i think i made a mistake with that article, i understood what they were saying, but assumed it would work with doubling for less on your own hand, but i dont think it does.. if anybody is down for reading that article and giving me your thoughts on it that would be great.. basically my question is, is there a situation where for doubling for less (a defined %) is more advantageous than hitting or doubling for full? this is on your own hand, not a scavenger move

 

[Kasi]

basically my question is, is there a situation where for doubling for less (a defined %) is more advantageous than hitting or doubling for full? this is on your own hand, not a scavenger move

Not that I know of.

Although sometimes it is proper to double even though you will win less than 50% of the hands.

 

[Cardcounter]

Doubling for less

It is never the correct stragedy if by just hitting you can take more hits to your hand. Doubling for less is always the wrong play in cash games. If splitting and doubling cause you to run out of chips in one hand you are playing above your means and will always lose. NEVER play beyond your bankroll. However doubling for less can be a good or a correct play in tournament blackjack where you are competting against other players.
Cameo plays might have some people doubling for less lets say you have a 13 and the dealer shows a 2 as a cameo play you put $1 out there and double for less to show the pit boss you are an idiot. You won't want another hit anyway and you will win less than 50% so you don't double for the full amount. Every basic stragedy double down wins more than 50% of the time for them to be correct, but they also have to produce a greater profit than just hitting. Lets take a 9 against a 7 if you double down you will win 53% of the time if you hit retaining your right to rehit a 9 against a 7 you will win 59% of the time. Lets look at the profit on a $100 bet hitting produces a profit of $18 doubling a profit of $12 on $200 risked. The $18 profit is greatest and there for is the prefered play.

 

[Kaiser]

. basically my question is, is there a situation where for doubling for less (a defined %) is more advantageous than hitting or doubling for full? this is on your own hand, not a scavenger move

No.

 

[shadroch]

None that I can think of,in a cash game.

 

[Brock Windsor]

Double for less

I believe some North Michighan casinos allow doubling on split aces, but not hitting them. This is when doubling for less has value. I think Wong has done the math on it in one of his books.

 

[shadroch]

I believe some North Michighan casinos allow doubling on split aces, but not hitting them. This is when doubling for less has value. I think Wong has done the math on it in one of his books.

I'm not following you. Please explain what doubling on split aces means?Lets assume I have a $30 bet out and draw a pair of Aces.Walk me thru the next move.

 

[miplet]

I'm not following you. Please explain what doubling on split aces means?Lets assume I have a $30 bet out and draw a pair of Aces.Walk me thru the next move.

Dealer has a 9, and you have 2 Aces. You put out another $30 and give a peace sign to split your aces. The first card is a 9. 20 is a good hand, so you stand. On the second Ace, you get a 3. Yuck a soft 14. If you just stand on this, you'll lose an average of $16.20* Howerer, if you put out another $5 and double for less, you will lose an average of $15.75*.

If a 6 instead of a 9 for the dealer, then you would double down on the A3 for the full amount of $30, since this is basic strategy.

*Note: I may be off on these numbers, but you get the basic idea.

 

[shadroch]

Why would they let you double,but not hit? That makes no sense.

 

[Canceler]

That makes no sense.

Doesn't mean it's not happening! :laugh:

...but if you split a pair of aces, you will receive only one card on each of the hands. However, you may "double down" and receive 1 more card on each ace. You may also "double down for less", if your original wager is larger than the table minimum.

From here: (Dead link: http://www.casino2win.com/grand_traverse/game_list.aspx?game=blackjack)

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

Cameo plays might have some people doubling for less

ya, i would definitely let Bill Murray make a cameo at my table and double my hand for less

I believe some North Michighan casinos allow doubling on split aces, but not hitting them. This is when doubling for less has value. I think Wong has done the math on it in one of his books.

you are essentially paying for a hit, thats all your doing, which would be very useful in like 90% of hands (pretend you cant hit, you can only double, split, or stand)

 

[Kasi]

Every basic stragedy double down wins more than 50% of the time for them to be correct, but they also have to produce a greater profit than just hitting.

The first statement is actually not true but all that really matters, like you say, is that the second statement is true.

Like, basically, when doubling all 10's vs 9 and 9's vs 3, one will win those doubled hands less than 50 times out of a hundred in a 6D S17 game but, as we all know, it's still the correct BS play.

 

[GeorgeD]

IF I recall all BS doubles are +EV, so why woul dyou double for less except scavenging off another's hand and you didn't have th money, or of course tournaments?

Am I missing something in this topic?

 

[zengrifter]

i understood what they were saying, but assumed it would work with doubling for less on your own hand...... is there a situation where for doubling for less (a defined %) is more advantageous than hitting or doubling for full?

Classic!:laugh: ... no, never, except for camoflauge. zg

 

[Kasi]

Dealer has a 9, and you have 2 Aces. You put out another $30 and give a peace sign to split your aces. The first card is a 9. 20 is a good hand, so you stand. On the second Ace, you get a 3....

If a 6 instead of a 9 for the dealer, then you would double down on the A3 for the full amount of $30, since this is basic strategy.

I've been thinking about this, always very dangerous lol, but I think I think that conventional BS would have to change with a rule like this. As BS often does with any rule change.

Like BS would change to double AA thru A5 vs any dealer upcard.

And maybe doubling an A6 all the way up to a dealer 9.

At least in a 6D S17 game.

Am I nuts? Pencil and paper only take me so far. So any help from u sim gurus would interest me.

To follow only conventional BS would, I think, at the very least, reduce the maximum advantage that such a rule offers. Which I don't think is very much anyway.

Whether the rule is still an advantage, or perhaps even a loss, to a player following only conventional BS, I'm just not sure.

But I'm thinking maybe.

 

[Mimosine]

Classic!:laugh: ... no, never, except for camoflauge. zg

on this one listen to the zen master. if you can't understand this then it is time for you to think about it during your daily meditations.

 

[rdorange]

Hit after splitting AA?

Dealer has a 9, and you have 2 Aces. You put out another $30 and give a peace sign to split your aces. The first card is a 9. 20 is a good hand, so you stand. On the second Ace, you get a 3. Yuck a soft 14. If you just stand on this, you'll lose an average of $16.20* Howerer, if you put out another $5 and double for less, you will lose an average of $15.75*.

If I'm not mistaken, when you split aces, you get one card per. You don't have the option to hit again.