Why they sweat?

[Dopple]

Do PCs sweat just because it is there job to watch for losses or in some cases do they track the shifts performance and when APs hit the tables on their watch their numbers go down?

 

[blackjack avenger]

Follow the Money

A business is going to watch where the money is, especially if losing.

:joker::whip:
good cards

 

[Bojack1]

Do PCs sweat just because it is there job to watch for losses or in some cases do they track the shifts performance and when APs hit the tables on their watch their numbers go down?

I don't think its really a case of the PC's sweating as much is it is the AP's. Most counters sweat there play way more then the PC's do. What I mean is, the overwhelming amount of heat AP's get is usually in their own head. And the small amount that does come their way usually only feeds their paranoia. Of course different shops have different tolerances, but all that means is so should the AP. But it seems that most fledgling counters as well as many more seasoned ones, seem to think that the pit is against you as soon as you sit down and that there is this need for all kinds of counter intelligence cloak and dagger maneuvering. I'll tell you what, if that was really the case, there would be no counters playing in the casinos. As a counter you are forced to do certain things in order to garner your advantage. This is a fact. There are slight variations to ways in doing these things at times, but it doesn't matter one way or the other they have to be done or else you squander your advantage. This gives the house the upper hand in this alleged cat and mouse game. If the PC's job was just that of catching counters, it would be very easy to do. But the fact is, its not. As a matter of fact most counters are caught by accident or by their own stupidity.

One of the biggest mistakes I have found in counters is what I call optimal steaming. Its basically chasing losses while still playing your game technically correct. Many counters will play sessions extra long if they are down to try and recover the session. For this reason you will find many backoffs coming in losing sessions. Odds are when a counter sits at the table, its only their little secret. Playing smart as well as having common sense and discipline will really aid in keeping it that way. Thinking the PC is there just to thwart you, is rather egotistical and laughable. But if you give them a reason to, they will happily oblige.

 

[paddywhack]

I don't think its really a case of the PC's sweating as much is it is the AP's. Most counters sweat there play way more then the PC's do. What I mean is, the overwhelming amount of heat AP's get is usually in their own head. And the small amount that does come their way usually only feeds their paranoia. Of course different shops have different tolerances, but all that means is so should the AP. But it seems that most fledgling counters as well as many more seasoned ones, seem to think that the pit is against you as soon as you sit down and that there is this need for all kinds of counter intelligence cloak and dagger maneuvering. I'll tell you what, if that was really the case, there would be no counters playing in the casinos. As a counter you are forced to do certain things in order to garner your advantage. This is a fact. There are slight variations to ways in doing these things at times, but it doesn't matter one way or the other they have to be done or else you squander your advantage. This gives the house the upper hand in this alleged cat and mouse game. If the PC's job was just that of catching counters, it would be very easy to do. But the fact is, its not. As a matter of fact most counters are caught by accident or by their own stupidity.

One of the biggest mistakes I have found in counters is what I call optimal steaming. Its basically chasing losses while still playing your game technically correct. Many counters will play sessions extra long if they are down to try and recover the session. For this reason you will find many backoffs coming in losing sessions. Odds are when a counter sits at the table, its only their little secret. Playing smart as well as having common sense and discipline will really aid in keeping it that way. Thinking the PC is there just to thwart you, is rather egotistical and laughable. But if you give them a reason to, they will happily oblige.

Excellent insight ! Thanks Bojack1

 

[blackjack avenger]

Heat & Temperature

Two main factors:
Size of bets
Size of wins

As you raise or lower these, so goes the temperature.

:joker::whip:
good cards

 

[Bojack1]

Two main factors:
Size of bets
Size of wins

As you raise or lower these, so goes the temperature.

:joker::whip:
good cards

In a very general sense this is true. But in so broad a sense it is misleading. Raising your bets and or winning do not in any way mean you will get heat. Its possible, but nearly as so you won't. Losing counters get backed off as much as winning counters. Play smart, there is more to getting heat then stated here, and most times less to worry about. Losing common sense in search of EV is what will bring you the most heat.

 

[blackjack avenger]

We Agree

In a very general sense this is true. But in so broad a sense it is misleading. Raising your bets and or winning do not in any way mean you will get heat. Its possible, but nearly as so you won't. Losing counters get backed off as much as winning counters. Play smart, there is more to getting heat then stated here, and most times less to worry about. Losing common sense in search of EV is what will bring you the most heat.

I did not say "raise" bets. I said size of bets, difference. I generally agree with everything you stated. My statement was brief and general.

good cards
:joker::whip:

 

[blackjack avenger]

Attention/Heat

When you are the biggest bettor:
At the table
In the pit
In the casino section
In the casino

Expect raising temperatures.
The more you win, the more the temperature rises.

good cards
:joker::whip:

 

[Bojack1]

When you are the biggest bettor:
At the table
In the pit
In the casino section
In the casino

Expect raising temperatures.
The more you win, the more the temperature rises.

good cards
:joker::whip:

Man I swear I'm not trying to bust balls here but I tend to think your posts here while having truth in them really carry little significance. I mean to most players starting out the options you have listed really don't apply. And even to some more experienced players at least 1/2 of them won't apply. If a new AP with a smaller bankroll were to read the advice, or observations, in your post, in what way would he be able to apply that to his game? Does the fact that none of it applies to him mean that he's immune to heat? Yes smaller bettors have a much larger tolerance to casino heat, but not learning how to avoid it early teaches nothing. Hopefully smalltime AP bankrolls will grow. Not having learned anything because in the past you were low rolling will surely cause problems as your bet size increases. Perhaps why so many counters do experience heat unnecessarily. Its less about your play and more in how you manage it. Betting big is not a prerequisite for heat unless you do not manage yourself well in the casino environment. Get that down early in your career even when its not an issue, and worry less about being the biggest bettor in the casino.

 

[blackjack avenger]

We Still Agree

You mention that a smaller bettor does not have much to worry about? General consensus is that red chip players have little to worry about, correct?

As they move into green, black and up their exposure increases correct?

Sometimes it's suggested to bet below a casino's radar, to bet within their tolerance level correct?

All the above fits in to my statement.

Notice how most of the time the biggest bettor in a pit has the floors attention? How often does a table of nickel bettors get stared down?

I can make it an even shorter statement.

The bigger you bet, the more attention.

Proof?
Walk into casino A
make a table min bet
Walk into casino B
make a table max bet
Casino B you will have far more attention!
I don't care what style of play you use. Size of bets is the number 1 attention getter!

A nickel player can generally spread at will.
Make a yellow flat bet off the top and you will get more attention.

So the number 1 way to avoid heat, don't bet big. This is very useful and of course common sense advice, as you bet bigger one will get more attention.

:joker::whip:
good cards

 

[Bojack1]

No the number one way to avoid heat is not, by not betting big. That is silly. The number one way to avoid heat and not have to low ball it, is to play within a tolerance that allows you to maximize your bankroll while still keeping things cool. I can play many short sessions with multiple black betting and recieve no heat, while a green chipper can plant himself at a table for hours and get backed off everyday. As I have said now many, many times, it is how you play the game that will determine your heat level. Betting size will only get you if you do not play it at the awareness level you are at. Being a black or higher bettor playing at a red chip awareness will give you heat. So just play smart. Its also why if you are betting small you should really learn the mindset of betting bigger if you choose to move in that direction.

 

[SleightOfHand]

No the number one way to avoid heat is not, by not betting big. That is silly. The number one way to avoid heat and not have to low ball it, is to play within a tolerance that allows you to maximize your bankroll while still keeping things cool. I can play many short sessions with multiple black betting and recieve no heat, while a green chipper can plant himself at a table for hours and get backed off everyday. As I have said now many, many times, it is how you play the game that will determine your heat level. Betting size will only get you if you do not play it at the awareness level you are at. Being a black or higher bettor playing at a red chip awareness will give you heat. So just play smart. Its also why if you are betting small you should really learn the mindset of betting bigger if you choose to move in that direction.

I agree. The only time I have gotten backed off was about a year or so back in Vegas when I was playing at Fiesta Rancho at their DD game. I was spreading 10-100, which was what I usually did at other DD games with no problems. What was different with other casinos was the fact that the only people playing in the pit was all locals at a single 6D game playing $3 mins. I was down a few hundred, but everything seemed fine until a little more than 30 minutes later when I got the tap. Anyway, after that, I started paying a lot more attention to what and where other players are betting big to help determine how I should be spreading

 

[Automatic Monkey]

In a very general sense this is true. But in so broad a sense it is misleading. Raising your bets and or winning do not in any way mean you will get heat. Its possible, but nearly as so you won't. Losing counters get backed off as much as winning counters. Play smart, there is more to getting heat then stated here, and most times less to worry about. Losing common sense in search of EV is what will bring you the most heat.

In some stores just bet variation will get you heat, with or without it being correlated to the count. Dr. CAA describes this in his recent book.

 

[blackjack avenger]

You Also Agree With Me

I agree. The only time I have gotten backed off was about a year or so back in Vegas when I was playing at Fiesta Rancho at their DD game. I was spreading 10-100, which was what I usually did at other DD games with no problems. What was different with other casinos was the fact that the only people playing in the pit was all locals at a single 6D game playing $3 mins. I was down a few hundred, but everything seemed fine until a little more than 30 minutes later when I got the tap. Anyway, after that, I started paying a lot more attention to what and where other players are betting big to help determine how I should be spreading

You were the biggest bettor:
At your table
At your pit
At your casino section
At your casino

Yes?

Why as a general statement do we say with larger bets you need more camo or spread less? Because those big bets all by their little selves draw more attention?

What is the opposite of what I am saying?
Smaller bets draw more attention?
Bigger bets draw less attention?
I hope everyone can see the lunacy of the above statement?

Size of bets are a bigger factor in getting heat/attention then how one plays!
Go flat bet yellow vs spreading red for proof.

 

[Bojack1]

In some stores just bet variation will get you heat, with or without it being correlated to the count. Dr. CAA describes this in his recent book.

Okay, but then common sense would tell you don't play there.

 

[Bojack1]

You were the biggest bettor:
At your table
At your pit
At your casino section
At your casino

Yes?

Why as a general statement do we say with larger bets you need more camo or spread less? Because those big bets all by their little selves draw more attention?

What is the opposite of what I am saying?
Smaller bets draw more attention?
Bigger bets draw less attention?
I hope everyone can see the lunacy of the above statement?

Size of bets are a bigger factor in getting heat/attention then how one plays!
Go flat bet yellow vs spreading red for proof.

Sure, with your line of thinking the whole AP world should just bet red to avoid heat. Sorry, I can't do that. And seeing that my bankroll allows me to bet much bigger than red, in the practical non theoretical world of blackjack, one must learn how to play bigger. All you state is correct and I agree flat betting yellow will of course bring you more attention than spreading red. But not necessarily heat. The bigger you bet the bigger the potential for heat. But there is a huge difference between potential for heat and actual heat, and how you play it my friend, is going to be exactly the determining factor of whether you get it or not. That has been my point from my first post in this thread. Many AP's cannot tell the difference of what is just pit attention as it is there job to observe, from pit heat. Playing scared because you can't decipher the difference won't help.

I will conceed that there are some places that as Monkey said will not even stand for bet variation. There are also places that will not handle a larger bet size without close scrutiny, "sweat shops", if you will. But if you can play with the common sense to avoid such places, then you can play whatever size you can handle. And that not only means by your bankroll, but what you can manipulate through the casino.

 

[blackjack avenger]

We Still Agree, Buttttt

Sure, with your line of thinking the whole AP world should just bet red to avoid heat.

I don't think I said anything about not betting big? I just stated that attention/heat will follow those big bets.

I will conceed that there are some places that as Monkey said will not even stand for bet variation. There are also places that will not handle a larger bet size without close scrutiny, "sweat shops", if you will. But if you can play with the common sense to avoid such places, then you can play whatever size you can handle. And that not only means by your bankroll, but what you can manipulate through the casino.

One statement you say one cannot be afraid of heat, then you say one has to avoid sweat shops? That would be avoiding heat?

What is a sweat shop?
They are not used to taking big bets
sooooo
When one bets big for that casino one gets attention?

good cards
:joker::whip:

Everyone here is in agreement.

Back to the original OP
Casino staff is going to pay attention to the big bets, where the $ are. All one has to do is look around in a casino and you will see I am right. Often in a high roller room each table gets it's own pit.

Of course howwwww one plays is very important, I never said it wasn't.

 

[Bojack1]

I don't think I said anything about not betting big? I just stated that attention/heat will follow those big bets.



One statement you say one cannot be afraid of heat, then you say one has to avoid sweat shops? That would be avoiding heat?

What is a sweat shop?
They are not used to taking big bets
sooooo
When one bets big for that casino one gets attention?

good cards
:joker::whip:

Everyone here is in agreement.

Back to the original OP
Casino staff is going to pay attention to the big bets, where the $ are. All one has to do is look around in a casino and you will see I am right. Often in a high roller room each table gets it's own pit.

Last post on this as my point has been made as well as I know how, and I get yours BA, I just don't completely agree with it.

Now being smart enough to play in places where you can play as close to optimal as possible and avoiding ones you can't, has nothing to do with being scared, its just smart. Yes avoiding heat in places that can't handle your action is smart. Playing smaller than needed in a place that allows larger action just because you do not know how to avoid the heat, not smart.

Attention alone does not in anyway equal heat. But heat will bring attention. There is a monumental difference. Learn how to play and you can play big along with the attention that comes with it, without heat. Play small and you may never experience attention or heat. Never figuring out how to handle yourself and your sessions in a casino will gaurantee you will never understand the difference between attention and heat and are doomed to be a paranoid counter.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Never figuring out how to handle yourself and your sessions in a casino will gaurantee you will never understand the difference between attention and heat and are doomed to be a paranoid counter.

Are you paranoid if they are out to get you?

good cards
:joker::whip:

 

[alwayssplitaces]

Pit bosses need to observe player's average bets for ratings purposes, whether or not they're playing anonymously. Case in point, I was spreading 5-50 on a single deck at a sweatshop. I acted like an idiot for just a few hands (when the pit boss was looking) my first hour, giving the pit boss the impression that I always play like an idiot. I was winning and ratholing, so it looked like I was losing when I kept buying in all night. I got offered a room comp there for my next visit, despite not playing rated. Of course I turned it down since I get room comps from Harrah's almost any day of the week and I don't want to stay where I play. In my last hour, the pit boss watched my play for his own entertainment. He laughed when I split and resplit tens with a large bet, and still won the hand. He laughed when I doubled a soft 19 and got an ace. And when I hit a hard 12 vs 5. All those plays were correct based on the count, but he thought I was an idiot. He was having too much fun to count along with me.

For most casinos, red chip counters are a cost of doing business. They're more than balanced out by the other players that play at a 2% house edge because they don't play perfect BS. Black chip counters can get away playing at places like the Bellagio since there are many bigger bettors.

Most backoffs start with a call from surveillance, since they see all the action in the casino and can focus on the big bets, and they can count down a shoe without being distracted by other tasks.