Wonging Questions

[adt_33]

I've read through this card-counting forum so much that my head is spinning. Buuut, I still have some questions, this time regarding wonging.

From what I've read here, heat isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I'm not too worried about it, really, but I'd like to cover my bases.

So you're telling me that I can just stand there? Stand there and backcount, even with seats open? Just stand there, huh? Sorry to get repetitve but it just blows my mind that someone could just watch the table, jump in, and start making (supposed) correct plays and (maybe) making money from unusual plays. And that doesn't look suspicious? Either I'm overthinking this, or this doesn't bother the casino because I'm not throwing down black chips.

Is it wise to never buy-in for chips when jumping in, or is this more paranoia?

And, if wonging truly isn't that suspicious-looking, then can you do it to several tables or the same table several times?

 

[halcyon1234]

Don't forget that there's also the less suspicious looking wonging-out. Rather than backcounting and hopping in on positive counts, you leave the table at negative counts.

As for backcounting, the cell phone can be your friend. Stand around "talking" on your cellphone. When the count goes high, end the call, sit down, start playing. Be very confident. Sit down like you SHOULD be there, and you should have been there all along, fucking cell phone. Then when the count goes down again, you "get" another call (which the dealer can't hear, because you phone is on "silent" ).

Another tactic is to stand around, checking your watch, looking around, as if you were waiting for someone. Then when the count starts to go up, ask the dealer if you can use one of the chairs while you wait. The dealer SHOULD say "Sorry, sir, the chairs are only for players". Look dissapointed, then check out the Limits plaque, then shrug your shoulders. "What the hell, who knows when he/she's going to show up." Sit down and buy in, and play away. When the count goes down, you maybe see your friend across the floor. Say thanks for the fun, grab your chips and leave. You can repeat this process at a different table in a few minutes when you realize that it wasn't who you were waiting for. (Alternatively, you get a cellphone call from your friend tell you he's outside-- )

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Good tactics Halcyon. Another one I learned about on another board is to pick a player who is in the same demographic as you and pretend you are his buddy watching him play. You can also start chatting up an appropriate girl at the table. But backcounting is much less awkward with a partner, you just stand there like a couple of guys talking and killing time at the casino.

I mostly Wong out especially when using a player's card, because it's a lot easier to get rated for comps that way.

 

[Canceler]

Not that I've seen that many, but...

Here's the best job I've seen of wonging in, and out.

Beginning of a new shoe, the dealer asks this kid (anyone more than 30 years my junior is a kid) looking at the table if he wants to play. He says he just wants to watch for awhile. Later on, exactly when the shoe goes favorable, he sits down and buys in. Well, it's obvious to me what he's doing. But then he does something during his buy-in that completely allays my suspicions.* Later on, when the count deteriorated, he jumped out of his chair like he had pulled an ejection handle. That's when I knew for sure, but nobody else did. Very well done, I thought.

*I hesitate to say in public just what that was, for his sake, and because it was so effective. At least on me.

 

[EasyRhino]

Sometimes I'll say something ploppyish like "I want to see if the you (the dealer) are on a roll".

And my favorite... eat an ice cream cone. No one will suspect you of anything while you're eating ice cream.

 

[Sonny]

Here's an older discussion with some good advice on Wonging techniques:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2789

-Sonny-

 

[adt_33]

Sonny:

You said: "Sometimes the count will drop during the first several hands then jump back up suddenly. I’ll usually watch through the first two decks. If the count isn’t positive by then I will look for another shoe."

Could you elaborate on this a bit? I can understand leaving the negative shoe if you see another table with a shuffling dealer or one with a small discard pile. But if you don't see this right away, I would think that it would be best to stick with the table you're at until the count is positive. By then the count would be more accurate anyway. Or do you leave for another reason altogether?

 

[Sonny]

I can understand leaving the negative shoe if you see another table with a shuffling dealer or one with a small discard pile. But if you don't see this right away, I would think that it would be best to stick with the table you're at until the count is positive.

You're right. The decision of when to abandon a negative shoe will be based on the availability of fresh shoes. It doesn't make sense to walk away from a table unless another table is available. In that case you might as well watch the same table and hope for the best. I usually backcount in big casinos where there are usually other tables available, so it is best for me to abandon shoes at the first sign of trouble. It can be a good way to increase the number of positive hands per hour and raise your EV a bit.

-Sonny-

 

[jetace]

Here's an older discussion with some good advice on Wonging techniques:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2789

-Sonny-

I was about to post that thread as well.

My favorite was the pump head fake technique. That really seems to throw 'em off, especially if they think they have you figured out.

That thread also has some great advice for single deck wonging. I'm going to apply it this weekend in Reno.

 

[jimpenn]

Backcounting in AC...Just be bold and ignore heat

Backcount agressively (6d) until you drop at $25 min tables at the Borgata in AC.
The PC's will stare at me as I walk from table to table during new shuffle. I could care less what they think. I'll stay around until count drops to -5/6 (no longer than 2 decks) and move on to the next. They know what I'm doing and have never shuffled up on me with a 3/1 spread at $25 table. No flat bet ever mentioned to me. Has anyone encountered a problem backcounting $25-75 in AC?

 

[halcyon1234]

Backcount agressively (6d) until you drop at $25 min tables at the Borgata in AC.
The PC's will stare at me as I walk from table to table during new shuffle. I could care less what they think. I'll stay around until count drops to -5/6 (no longer than 2 decks) and move on to the next. They know what I'm doing and have never shuffled up on me with a 3/1 spread at $25 table. No flat bet ever mentioned to me. Has anyone encountered a problem backcounting $25-75 in AC?

I'd bet that they're losing less to a $75 player advantage than they would to HE on ploppy-hands/hour lost by constantly shuffling on you.

 

[mdlbj]

Team play with the proper bank roll will negate any wonging if applied correctly.

 

[lvhcm]

Team play with the proper bank roll with negate any wonging if applied correctly.

The master communicator strikes again...

 

[RJT]

What's funny here is that while mdlbj's post was somewhat unclear (what type of team play are we discussing here?, what's a proper bankroll? and how does it negate wonging?), lvhcm's post is just as bad if not worse!
What exactly was your problem with the post? If you are going to criticize at the very least be specific about what you're criticizing. One of the reasons that i've held off on posting on this forum in the past is the 'take swipes at people for no good reason about off topic matters' culture that doesn't seem to happen on the smaller forums. I appreciate that the majority of the conversations here are perfectly civil and have to ask the few who make these non-specific comments about minor points that are either obvious errors or could be cleared up with a simple and polite question - where's the need?

RJT.

 

[EasyRhino]

One of the reasons that i've held off on posting on this forum in the past is the 'take swipes at people for no good reason about off topic matters' culture that doesn't seem to happen on the smaller forums.

Typical noob post.



Just kidding. Sometimes I need to look at the exchanges like above as some sort of Zen koan that is too mysterious for my current level of enlightenment.

 

[RJT]

Lol, i actually went and did a google search on "Zen koan" and read the wiki result that turned up. My head hurts now.......

RJT.

 

[mdlbj]

The master communicator strikes again...

Negate:

1 To make ineffective or invalid; nullify.
2 To rule out; deny.

Does this help? Or do I need to dumb it down and use four letter descriptive additives lvhcm?

Team play is pretty self explanatory, if one does not know what the advantage of team play is, then ask one of the pros on this board.

Proper bankroll is key to any session weather it is a solo trip or used in team play. 10, 20 or 30k is not a proper bankroll.

Sorry to be so short in the initial post, there are several people using this login to read and to post with.

 

[Sonny]

Team play is pretty self explanatory, if one does not know what the advantage of team play is, then ask one of the pros on this board.

I think lvhcm is confused because there are so many different types of team play. There can be spotters, BPs, Gorillas, relays, front loaders, trackers, keyers, turners, heat seekers, investors, mules, and many more. Some styles of team play will involve different combinations of players and different skills as their means for gaining an advantage.

Perhaps it would help if you described which style of team play you meant and how it makes Wonging “ineffective or invalid.”

Proper bankroll is key to any session weather it is a solo trip or used in team play. 10, 20 or 30k is not a proper bankroll.

I’m not sure I understand this part either. Any sized bankroll can be “proper” if the player bets properly. I started with a $2k bankroll but since I was playing the $1 and $3 SD tables it was enough to be “proper” for my purposes. As my bankroll grew I adjusted my bets so that my bankroll was always sufficient for my playing style. I would guess that most players on this website do not have $30k bankrolls but that doesn’t mean that they are not playing properly. Could you clarify what you meant by proper?

-Sonny-

 

[bluewhale]

i think what mdlbj is trying to say is that you need a "proper" bankroll for TEAM PLAY. what sonny is talking about (ie the 2k BR with $1 or $3 min was solo play). you need a large bankroll to justify the use of team play. if you are working with a BR of 10 20 or 30k, in his opinion, you are better of not using team play.... rather just wonging or using other solo techniques.

 

[Sonny]

if you are working with a BR of 10 20 or 30k, in his opinion, you are better of not using team play.... rather just wonging or using other solo techniques.

But having several teammates playing individually at different tables is a form of team play (Arnold Snyder calls it an EMFH Team aka Every Man For Himself Team). It doesn’t require an unusually large bankroll or advanced team strategies. It has the advantage of pooled bankrolls, smoother variance and quicker profits. Using an EMFH team strategy can give you a much bigger advantage than solo counting no matter what your bankroll is.

I guess my point is that there is not just one team strategy. There are many different ways to benefit from additional players combining their efforts. Just like with solo counting, a team must select the strategy that gives them the best advantage. Just about any sized bankroll can be adequate for team play if used properly.

-Sonny-