Your thoughts, please ...

[The Mayor]

Your opinion on this is sought,

As you know, I am interested in educating casino maganement at the highest levels about the real risks that card counters pose, and about ways they could improve their drop/hold, while offering better games for all. For years I have held as my guiding principle our rights as advantage players, and have taken many actions to support this cause.

I think the approach currently being used by the advantage community (complain loudly when something goes away or changes for the worse -- litigate sometimes) is not making much of a difference. This is too bad, but true. The casino lobby is powerful, and our voice is very quiet compared to the shouting that billions of dollars in revenues create.

I have the opportunity to work for a company that consults directly with casinos. My specialty would be table games. This would put me in touch with those people who are in the position to effect the changes we all desire, and my goal would be to educate them about the real dangers of advantage players (or lack of danger, which is my opinion), pointing to the bottom line equation.

My belief is that advantage players have a right to play, I have always held that. I am considering the possibility that I could have a real effect on this by taking the offered position. My goal would be to educate management on what is really costing them $$$ (for example, time spent shuffling because of poor penetration).

I view this as an opportunity to make a real difference where it counts.

What do you think?

Thanks for your feedback.

--Mayor

 

[revereman]

I think you're a smart guy who apparently still sees the world through rose-colored glasses. Telling the pit at Chumash that you were a cardcounter but couldn't hurt them didn't work. Although you were quite sketchy about the details of your new potential position, you will not be able to convince casino management that cardcounters won't hurt them or that their countermeasures cost too much. I certainly agree with you that cardcounters should be able to use their brains to beat the casinos at their own game. However, just as insurance companies are not in the business of providing insurance (they are in the business of making money), casinos are not in the gambling business (they are also in the business of making money). Casinos allow us to play until they think we are a real threat to their bottom line (threshholds certainly vary from casino to casino). I think most casinos and casino chains are highly profitable doing what they are doing. They really don't have much incentive to change. They can offer CSM's, Spanish 21, etc. and will continue to make money at these games unless people stop playing them. They continually test the waters to see how much they can get away with (taking people's money faster). Until people stop playing (like in the days after Beat the Dealer), the casinos will continue to push the envelope. Most casinos (but not all) are not afraid of red chippers winning $200, but they do not want those players graduating to black chip players and forming teams. Good luck Eliot Quixote.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I think the casinos know how little a threat we pose, but there is something else in the works.

It's pride. Very few of these casino employees can count cards like we do, and they see us making more money than they do at their crappy jobs and it bothers them. Hence the rough treatment, calling us "scumbags", etc. A counter walking away with $1000 seems to bother them more than a slot player winning $100,000. What bothers them is that we are smarter than they are.

On a different tangent, if you are going to go into the business of consulting with casinos on table games, why not invent a new game? They seem to jump at these garbage games being promoted these days. Let's design a good one. But here's the catch, one that can be advantage played, but by an elite few. Something that's considerably harder than BJ card counting. Now if they know that only 1% of the population will be able to beat the game, they'll have nothing to fear because the other 99% can't. But lots of people who can't will show up and try to prove they can, thus the casino will make money. They can even openly invite AP's to play, and show everybody "how easy it is to win", on the condition that we work alone and do not help anyone at the table.

It's a win/win/win. A win for the casinos with the extra revenue. A win for the public because they will be getting a fair game and a chance to exercise and devlop their mental agility, and a win for us because we will be winning.

 

[The Mayor]

New games

I have several ideas for such games ...

Unfortunately, that's a hugely competitive market, and to sell a game you need (at the very least) one of the $10k spots at the annual gaming show in Vegas, then you need to market it hard, compete with 1000 other people marketing their games, then provide all the on-site support for the game, and lastly, be ready for the lawsuits when your game doesn't do what you "promised" in the contract.

The best option is to hook up with an established company (e.g. ShuffleMaster) but then they just give you a low paying "research" job and they keep all the profits. ShuffleMaster now owns all the rights for "3 card poker," for example.

Another company that's worth a try if you have an idea is "Galaxy Gaming." They are the ones who put out the highly successful "Lucky Ladies" and they have a new game they are trying to promote. Watch and wait for that new game ... "Texas Shootout" -- let me know if it comes your way (http://www.galaxygaming.com/). I doubt it.

--Mayor

 

[gehrig]

proof of the pudding is at hand...

examine the holds at the player friendly 21 games in lv to assess their value. does the s.d./das fiesta game generate more hold at the 21 games than before (w/o the das) ? did the s.d./das game at slots generate higher holds than the current, gelded game ? recall that zender was a proponent of low stakes, counter friendly games. yars before, it was the castaways.

perhaps the latest gsn 21 tournaments, drafting the holdem game tournaments, will produce a renaissance. no doubt that the holdem tournaments have bulged attendance at casino poker rooms. perhaps with legions of newbie 21 players sucked into the game by the gsn series, the joints will become genuinely competitive in attracting these players.

but not likely, since corporate driven businesses seem to lose hands on, personal operation. those players who have been around awhile, recall casino owners/"pitboss" staff walking among the players, handing out comps, tapping out dealers then declaring automatic dealer busts/automatic player pays, and the like. remember the 2:1 christmas week snappers at the horseshoe ? those events are long remembered by patrons.

today, the player is blown off or directed to the automatic comp issuing machine in the hallway next to the atm.

 

[SammyBoy]

I tend to agree with the other posters that say you will have no effect on casino management. But I think if it is a job that interests you and will improve you personal bottomline then you should go for it. Best of luck and please keep us posted.

 

[Strider]

Re: New games

We've got Texas shootout in my local casinos. Does anybody know a site which has calculated the house advantage and the odds? Do you think it can be beat? I couldn't find any webpages about that game and the wizard of odds doesn't have the game on it's site either.

 

[Hinoon]

Here's my thinking on this subject:

You are a good and astute judge of character. So firstly, I would examine how comfortable YOU feel being associated with the company that has offered you the position. The fact that you've raised the issue in the public forum is pretty significant...

Second, I would be absolutely sure that by accepting this position you aren't accidentally curtailing your own freedoms...as a player and as a vocal member of this community. Clearly you are well versed in discretion...but at some point, by consulting with a casino, someone at said casino is going to throw out the topic of proprietary information. You don't want to be put into a position where your ability to discuss strategy with players conflicts with the fiscal interests of a company that could sue the roof off of your head.

I think that it would be beneficial towards your goals to act as a consultant...but I would do so in a very careful manner.

I personally think that the route towards changing casinos is via the general gambling population. The casinos KNOW that counters are not a significant threat to them...but as long as they promote the romantic stereotype that lumps AP players with cheaters...then Joe Public will go along with the measures they take against us. If ploppies feel cheated by the measures that casinos take in the name of "fair play" then they won't stand idle. It's a lot more work, I know...but casinos have yet to make decisions with integrity and fair-play as their guiding forces.

Surely you have been offered similar positions in the past...and have until now, refused them. If this offer is different enough to merit further consideration, then I don't doubt that you are giving it serious thought.

Other than those concerns...I don't see why not...you have a very public and clear opinion concerning fair-play and player's rights. Anyone asking you to work with them must know this. And hey...it can't HURT to have your logic and integrity tossed into the decision-making process of the "other-side".

I say protect yourself and proceed with caution, but by all means...proceed.

 

[eyesfor21]

thoughts okay..

Casinos must realize that counters will benefit the game:
-attracting the working guy that skims through a book
once knows a thing or two but still gets wiped,,
-attracting more players to the game,thus more cash for the
casino
-they should also pay dealers for speed thus more
hands per hour and more cash for all
-dealers should have to be clocked with a timer-if your too slow
you FAIL.
- casinos should realize few counters have the discpline nor
the bankroll to pose any threat at all,and if they win and
day or two odds will be even for them they give it back.(remember
your poll only few made cash for the year)our edge is so small
many counters do not realize that it take a lot more
to win that a high count thus they fail.

 

[Slowhand]

I agree.....proceed cautiously, but proceed. But, be prepared to deal with accusations of turning to 'the dark side', even if they are absolutely baseless accusations. It is a very intriguing opportunity, indeed.

 

[The Mayor]

This thread is the most pointed towards my concerns.

The "dark side" is already our employer! The casinos are paying us a wage (through our skill at their games).

I suppose we are all already on the dark side. Maybe it is just the "darker" side.

 

[suicyco maniac]

Texas Shootout...

Is already starting to die a slow and painfull death...

 

[LV Bear]

Working for the bad guys

I respect your decision to open this discussion in a public forum.

You face a difficult choice. Other prominent members of the advantage player community have occasionally worked for the bad guys. While there well may be opportunities there, the price is high. It is tough to overcome the natural inclination of many people to believe you have "sold out." Some did sell out, and never returned from the dark side - Olaf Vancura and Howard Grossman come to mind. Others have done small amounts of consulting that did not conflict with their work for the player side of the tables. Some have done so without damage to their reputations, others have not been so fortunate.

One thing is clear. You cannot have it both ways at the same time. Many believe once you "cross the line," you will never been trustworthy again. Knowing you to be a person of integrity, I know you would put your best efforts towards what you believe in. Be aware, though, that you will likely be working mostly for and with people of low moral character. Sure, there are honorable people in the casino business, but not many. It is a morally bankrupt industry. With your background of decency and honesty, you will find it hard not to give full effort towards your new masters. This may involve breaking confidences you have been entrusted with from the player side. For example, you may be asked to point out and plug holes in games where some skilled players now enjoy an advantage that is not known by most casino personnel. If you do the honorable thing for your employer, you will have to point them out. But to do the honorable thing for your new employer, you will have to do the dishonorable thing of violating previous confidences. You will be in an impossible situation. How will you handle that?

It will be inevitable that you will have to stop posting on your own website, if not shut it down entirely. You will no longer be able to speak out against injustices. You will have to terminate some of your friendships and your freedom to associate with whom you choose. Casino types are not big on free speech. They are not known for treating their own people decently. Look at the way lower-level personnel, such as dealers, are routinely mistreated.

I agree that the present methods of fighting back against the bullies have been somewhat ineffective. Some progress has been made, though. There have been several large settlements in lawsuits against casinos for abuse of patrons, and more cases are pending. Casino surveillance leaders, such as Jim Goding, are openly speaking about the liability problems created by casino personnel going over the line in their mistreatment of skilled players. Some of the cases resulting from attacks against high-profile players will be going to trial soon. I expect some of this to make the national media. In the not too distant future, some heads will roll among security supervisors and casino managers who tolerate, or encourage, crimes against skilled players by their employees. Maybe for no other reason than to protect themselves from large jury awards, eventually the bean counters will see patron harassment as negative EV for the casino industry.

It is likely that the games will continue to get worse. Game conditions have been in decline for a long time, as you well know. The quality of casino personnel has been diluted by the proliferation of casinos across the nation. I doubt if one out of a hundred floor people have the skills that an average counter or other advantage player has. While this is usually good for the skilled player, it is not always good. To compensate for the many weak, poorly trained, and clueless employees, management has to resort to other measures. Cheating devices, such as Mindplay, and passive game "protection," such as shallow penetration, 6 to 5 ripoff games, etc. can be utilized with very little investment in employee training.

Casinos are losing the personal touch with their customers, but they don't care. Look at the comp-issuing machines, where there once was a smiling human being with a pen and comp slip. Casinos see their customers as nothing but chumps lining up to give their money away. And, sad to say, mostly they're right. You are not going to be able to change this mindset.

While I know your intentions are honorable, I'm sorry to say that I don't think you can make even a small dent in the cancer that's spreading. What percentage of casinos does this company consult for? What percentage of influential casino people will you have any contact with at all? What guarantees are they willing to give you that you will be properly compensated for your knowledge and skills? If they don't like what they hear from you, are you out the door? You must realize that your belief systems are not shared by many in the casino industry. You will be a lone voice in the wilderness. You will be in a hostile environment, interacting with people whose views are radically different from what you are accustomed to. It will be a strange and lonely existence.

I wish you the best whatever you decide.

 

[The Mayor]

Wow

Great post, LVBear. You have given me much to consider. Thanks.

 

[Stealth Bomber]

Don't go. Stay free with us. Let's unite and fight them. Let's be the William Wallaces of the gaming industry. Make them come to you and beg for mercy. When they come to you again in the future, show them their ignorance in thinking we are bad for the industry and that they need to stop their ridicules nonsense. They need to stop cutting off their nose in an attempt to spite their face.

Can they buy off your moral standards? How much is your freedom worth?

With every days passing, you're becoming more and more respected. If you go, don't sell yourself short.

 

[Coug It]

Re: Texas Shootout...

I have a sighting of the game, Eliot. Why do you ask?

 

[Inskipp]

Re: Working for the bad guys

I agree with the Bear.

I also think it might be very hard for an independent-thinking person such as yourself to work for a large corporation. I don't know if you have ever done it, but be advised that "Dilbert" isn't far off. Before you take such a step, look carefully at who you would be working with, and what they are really like.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

He'll end up shouting FREEDOM with his guts all over the place before they draw and quarter him and post him all around the city.

 

[revereman]

Re: Wow

I agree that LV Bear's post was great (as usual), but are those really issues that you haven't thought of yourself? I didn't bother discussing the whole "dark side" issue in my initial response for various reasons, one being that it's so obvious. We have trusted you with much of our personal information, and like Cellini, it would be unwise of us to associate with you, despite your integrity and good intentions, if you were to take this position. I'm a firm believer in "you gotta do what you gotta do" but your credibility as a player advocate would have to be put in doubt. They surely would not be hiring you to improve conditions for AP's.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Amazing Post

POM material Bear. Give yourself an extra jar of honey.

"You face a difficult choice. Other prominent members of the advantage player community have occasionally worked for the bad guys. While there well may be opportunities there, the price is high. It is tough to overcome the natural inclination of many people to believe you have "sold out." Some did sell out, and never returned from the dark side - Olaf Vancura and Howard Grossman come"

another reason to boycott the KO count.

"One thing is clear. You cannot have it both ways at the same time. Many believe once you "cross the line," you will never been trustworthy again. Knowing you to be a person of integrity, I know you would put your best efforts towards what you believe in."

Trustworthy? hehehehehe Eliot likes things his way, so these concepts of trust, integrity, etc, are all in context one minute, and out of context the next. Like woman's rights and her freedom to get an abortion. I am glad you pointed out what battles his mind will face once he switches sides. That's why his post below yours is so short. I think you opened his eyes.

"This may involve breaking confidences you have been entrusted with from the player side. For example, you may be asked to point out and plug holes in games where some skilled players now enjoy an advantage that is not known by most casino personnel. If you do the honorable thing for your employer, you will have to point them out. But to do the honorable thing for your new employer, you will have to do the dishonorable thing of violating previous confidences. You will be in an impossible situation. How will you handle that?"

Point made........15 love

"It will be inevitable that you will have to stop posting on your own website, if not shut it down entirely. You will no longer be able to speak out against injustices. You will have to terminate some of your friendships and your freedom to associate with whom you choose."

This is where I would think the Eliot will have his biggest problem. I think this job could be a steady one, but could also be a flash in the pan. They will more than likely suck you dry and toss you back to the people you have turned your back on. They may actually be targeting him, and his integrity.

"While I know your intentions are honorable, I'm sorry to say that I don't think you can make even a small dent in the cancer that's spreading."

I agree. We have a right to play, but we personally have to protect ourselves by using cover, playing short stints, etc. We are loners, and that is one of our greatest assets.

"What guarantees are they willing to give you that you will be properly compensated for your knowledge and skills? If they don't like what they hear from you, are you out the door?"

None, unless they give him a contract with an early buy out package. I don't think they will offer him that.

"You must realize that your belief systems are not shared by many in the casino industry. You will be a lone voice in the wilderness. You will be in a hostile environment, interacting with people whose views are radically different from what you are accustomed to. It will be a strange and lonely existence."

Well, I think we are all used to that feeling to some degree. Being a player makes you look like a gambler, which is neck and neck with people who have gambling problems, etc. Eliot could put together a good arguement to try to capture a market share of bj players. We all know 99% counters are wannabe Uston's with no real bankroll, the fear of making big bets, and more often than not will leave after they get into a giant negative swing, which is $ in the casinos pockets. With the WSOBj going on I could put together a killer marketing ploy that would make the casino money and allow the 1% killers to get their freak on. It's all about making this a win win situation.

Casino personnel, if you are reading this, I'll sell you the marketing ploy for 50K US. Nothing for you, and a bit of extra cash for me. No contracts.

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