Zen Original

[Solo player]

Been learing Zen original. I've got about 13 hours into it. Going from a level 1 to a level 2 seems much easier to pick up than I thought it would be.

 

[Severity8]

what was your original? I'm curious if your initial was balanced and how hard the transition from a balanced to a balanced is versus a unbalanced to a balanced.

 

[Solo player]

what was your original? I'm curious if your initial was balanced and how hard the transition from a balanced to a balanced is versus a unbalanced to a balanced.

I've used Hi-Lo. But the last couple of years I played K-O

 

[johnnyb]

I've used Hi-Lo. But the last couple of years I played K-O

On 6D, DAS, RSA, S17, NS --- What is the increased advantage of a ZEN user versus a KO Full/TKO user. I'd like to be able to compare the two to see if the switch is truly worth it.

 

[zengrifter]

Been learing Zen original. I've got about 13 hours into it. Going from a level 1 to a level 2 seems much easier to pick up than I thought it would be.

Yes, much easier than many would have you believe. zg

 

[Solo player]

Draw backs to using K-O

After using K-O for a couple of years here is what I do not like about it.

1) After playing off and on the last few months along side Hi-Lo players. K-O does under bet early in the shoe and over bet near the end of a shoe.

2) Many more indices to learn. The starting points for 6 deck vs 2 deck are a lot different. Indices have to be memorized for each game. I feel this makes it harder to switch tables\games and make correct index plays.

I think in real casino conditions playing day in and day out juming from 6 deckers down to 2 deckers, learning a balaced count is the way to go.
If you only play one game at your local casino then K-O will work. Adding TKO is just a lot more extra work for little if any gain. Take the time to learn a balanced count.

 

[Severity8]

Noted and a head nod to the gorilla! :grin:

 

[Solo player]

Noted and a head nod to the gorilla! :grin:

I'll second that motion.

 

[21gunsalute]

After using K-O for a couple of years here is what I do not like about it.

1) After playing off and on the last few months along side Hi-Lo players. K-O does under bet early in the shoe and over bet near the end of a shoe.

I noticed this too. Not just with you, but with a couple of other players that I've seen using KO. A lot of people here refer to it as a powerful count, but from what I've seen it just plain under performs time after time. Good luck with your switch to Zen! Let me know how it works out.

 

[zengrifter]

Been learing Zen original. I've got about 13 hours into it. Going from a level 1 to a level 2 seems much easier to pick up than I thought it would be.

Presumably you played KO to avoid the TC adjustment.
If that is now not a problem, great!
IF TC is a problem, you'd be better served with UBZ, which performs on par with ZEN. zg

 

[ycming]

I thought the same, could count down a deck perfectly fine. But in a casino enviroment it was much harder than i expected with Zen.

I went from hi-lo to Zen.

you learning all indicies?

Ming

 

[Solo player]

I thought the same, could count down a deck perfectly fine. But in a casino enviroment it was much harder than i expected with Zen.

I went from hi-lo to Zen.

you learning all indicies?

Ming

Not all. 36

 

[QFIT]

After using K-O for a couple of years here is what I do not like about it.

1) After playing off and on the last few months along side Hi-Lo players. K-O does under bet early in the shoe and over bet near the end of a shoe.

But, it is better in the sweet spot; which is why it performs so well overall.

2) Many more indices to learn. The starting points for 6 deck vs 2 deck are a lot different. Indices have to be memorized for each game. I feel this makes it harder to switch tables\games and make correct index plays.

I think in real casino conditions playing day in and day out juming from 6 deckers down to 2 deckers, learning a balaced count is the way to go.
If you only play one game at your local casino then K-O will work. Adding TKO is just a lot more extra work for little if any gain. Take the time to learn a balanced count.

This is exactly why I came up with REKO. Not only are the indexes the same for any number of shoes, they are the same for all indexed hands. +2 always.

 

[Solo player]

This is exactly why I came up with REKO. Not only are the indexes the same for any number of shoes, they are the same for all indexed hands. +2 always.

But when you compare the indices for REKO vs REKO-f there is quite a lot of difference. Also if you want to add more indices to REKO would the additional indices also be at 2?

When these 2 counts are simmed in CVCX, REKO-f out does REKO so learning more exact indices certainly helps.

Also I have sims in CVCX that I would like to post. But I can't seem to get a screen shot from my 3 year old laptop. Is it possible that my laptop does not have the right software?

 

[zengrifter]

But when you compare the indices for REKO vs REKO-f there is quite a lot of difference. Also if you want to add more indices to REKO would the additional indices also be at 2?

No - at 4 and 6. You could call it REKO-advanced. zg

 

[QFIT]

But when you compare the indices for REKO vs REKO-f there is quite a lot of difference. Also if you want to add more indices to REKO would the additional indices also be at 2?

When these 2 counts are simmed in CVCX, REKO-f out does REKO so learning more exact indices certainly helps.

Also I have sims in CVCX that I would like to post. But I can't seem to get a screen shot from my 3 year old laptop. Is it possible that my laptop does not have the right software?

REKO is as good as HiLo. REKO-F is more complex and better. You pick yoour poison.

Yes, you can add more at +2. Cacarulo did this with many indexes showing further improvement. Just not as much improvement as when using exact indexes.

Any Windows PC should allow screeshots.

 

[Solo player]

I ran a sim comparing Zen original, using 34 indices vs canned sims from CVCX. Hi-lo full,REKO,and REKO-f six deck. Tell me what ya think. I could not figure out the screenshot thing so I added it as an attach.





View attachment HI-LO full.xls

View attachment Zen 34.xls

View attachment REKO.xls

View attachment REKO-F six deck.xls

 

[QFIT]

Realize that "HiLo Full Indices" has 148 indices.

 

[Solo player]

Realize that "HiLo Full Indices" has 148 indices.

Yes . Thats my point. Zen does very well with the 34 indices I used vs. all the indices for Hi-LO,REKO-F,and REKO

And using Zen, one set of indices works well for 2dk. or 6dk

 

[johnnyb]

After using K-O for a couple of years here is what I do not like about it.

1) After playing off and on the last few months along side Hi-Lo players. K-O does under bet early in the shoe and over bet near the end of a shoe.

2) Many more indices to learn. The starting points for 6 deck vs 2 deck are a lot different. Indices have to be memorized for each game. I feel this makes it harder to switch tables\games and make correct index plays.

I think in real casino conditions playing day in and day out juming from 6 deckers down to 2 deckers, learning a balaced count is the way to go.
If you only play one game at your local casino then K-O will work. Adding TKO is just a lot more extra work for little if any gain. Take the time to learn a balanced count.

All good information to hear, but you may be mistaken about TKO. It's actually fairly simple to learn if you are already a talented KO Full user. TKO is somewhat more precise, and actually fixes the problem you have addressed with KO about underbetting at the beginning of the shoe. With a 6D shoe, we'd actually have roughly a .5% advantage at a running count of +9 as long as a deck OR less has been dealt. For a KO user, we don't see this advantage until a running count +16 (if you started at 0 like myself). Since TKO is true counted, we are then actually aware of points where a running count of +16 is NOT as advantageous as a KO user presumes towards the end of a shoe. Therefore, we actually see improvements in our betting ramp. I may be wrong, but these minor adjustments to KO could put TKO in the same ballpark as Hi-Lo. But I think TKO is barely simpler, because you just need to estimate the # of decks in the discard tray to figure out which betting ramp you use. Daniel Dravot made it as easy as possible to learn

That's just my little tidbit ---

Nevertheless, I still plan on switching to either ZEN or AOII. Can someone link me to another discussion or explain which outperforms which, specifically in a 6D shoe game?