Zen v Hi-Lo

[SleightOfHand]

You are wonging in at a lower advantage point for Zen. That means the SCORE will be lower. You do not use the same wong-in point when using level I and level II strategies using full count divisors.

I checked the SCOREs for play all and Zen still loses

I am getting a 20.43 SCORE for the Zen 10:1 spread same rules play all and 24.05 for Hi-Lo

PS: Just making sure, Zen is supposed to be significantly better than HiLo correct?

 

[QFIT]

You have "manually adjust minimum bet" set. This means you are not allowing CVCX to calculate the optimal betting ramp. You are forcing bad SCOREs.

 

[SleightOfHand]

You have "manually adjust minimum bet" set. This means you are not allowing CVCX to calculate the optimal betting ramp. You are forcing bad SCOREs.

.

 

[QFIT]

Makes sense. HiLo is better than Zen at 8 decks. Zen is better with indexes. Indexes have little value with 8 decks.

 

[SleightOfHand]

Makes sense. HiLo is better than Zen at 8 decks. Zen is better with indexes. Indexes have little value with 8 decks.

Really? The .01 BC difference is that much greater than .12 PE and .09 IC (taken from your website)?

PS: DD too

 

[QFIT]

UstonSS only has six indexes for eight decks including Insurance. Eight deck is all betting. Also realize that the Original Zen had no Surrender indexes.

 

[rukus]

Really? The .01 BC difference is that much greater than .12 PE and .09 IC (taken from your website)?

PS: DD too

good luck finding a S17 DAS LS DD game with 70% pen.

also, with even just the I18, i dont think that DD sim is correct. zen should overtake hilo even with just the i18.

 

[QFIT]

good luck finding a S17 DAS LS DD game with 70% pen.

also, with even just the I18, i dont think that DD sim is correct. zen should overtake hilo even with just the i18.

The DD sim also included surrender (good luck finding that.) Original Zen had no Sr indexes. HiLo does and they would count for a lot at DD.

 

[LordDante]

... and i wonder why did i change?

looking at this sims

im asking myself, does hi-low outperforms Zen?

A level 1 counting strategy vs a level 2.

I used to use hi-low and i switched, like sleight of hand said a 0.01% made all the difference?

What im getting is this: "Zen is worst than hi low in shoe games and Zen is slightly better than hi low in a single or doule deck"

Can anyone explain to me, where is the 10% of extra gain in this!

Dante

 

[jack.jackson]

Zen vs Hi-lo

Using the Authors indices, heres my analysis.

Betting protocols, rules and conditions, are identical.

8D,S17,Lsr,DAS
81%,4Plyrs,10$(1:15)

Play-all

+2/2
+3/5
+4/10
+5/15

Note/for convinience i named both sims zen. No, its not a mistake!

 

[LordDante]

jj

For jj

i Think the complete zen count doenst have surrender.


I think you have to add it manually for the sim to be accurate.

Dante

 

[zengrifter]

What im getting is this: "Zen is worst than hi low in shoe games and Zen is slightly better than hi low in a single or doule deck"

ZEN trumps HiLo in BOTH types of games. zg

 

[SleightOfHand]

I think this is the cause of the problem. When i select full indeces, I get the regular surrender chart. But when I set it on S16 F4, the second set of indeces come up. I went to manage the strategy but nothing is like the second chart. I checked all the different charts for s16, multideck, etc. but nothing shows the chart on the rigth. Do you know whats going on QFIT?

 

[QFIT]

When you have full indexes set, it uses the indexes from the selected strategy. When you select S16, F4; all cells that are not part of the Sweet 16 or Fab 4 are set to Basic Strategy for the selected rules.

 

[li_ka_shing168]

Hi, everyone, i have switched from hilo to zen for about 300 hours now, i have notice my winning are decreased compare to hilo, i play at a 8decks, 72%pen, H17 DAS DOA game, i use a 1-40 spread. I used the same ROR of 3% i had in hilo for the zen to generate my optimal betting. During play, I notice I bet less money then in hilo because higher counts comes less often in zen then in hilo. I use 18 and more indexes but most of them cant even be use because I barely get a hand over TC 11 at zen while lots of my indexes are above this TC. But in my cvcx generation I got a better win/hour with zen. 91.51$ vs 89.44$. In the recent simulation did by SleightOfHand, it was hilo that outperformed the zen in the type of shoes game I am playing, but me i got an opposed result. So is there a bug somewhere in my simulation considering the fact that hilo would do better in the game I am playing or does the zen really perform better. And as I mentioned, I notice a big lack of chance of pulling in big bets with zen compare tho hilo.

 

[zengrifter]

Hi, everyone, i have switched from hilo to zen for about 300 hours now, i have notice my winning are decreased compare to hilo, i play at a 8decks, 72%pen, H17 DAS DOA game, i use a 1-40 spread. I used the same ROR of 3% i had in hilo for the zen to generate my optimal betting. During play, I notice I bet less money then in hilo because higher counts comes less often in zen then in hilo. I use 18 and more indexes but most of them cant even be use because I barely get a hand over TC 11 at zen while lots of my indexes are above this TC. But in my cvcx generation I got a better win/hour with zen. 91.51$ vs 89.44$. In the recent simulation did by SleightOfHand, it was hilo that outperformed the zen in the type of shoes game I am playing, but me i got an opposed result. So is there a bug somewhere in my simulation considering the fact that hilo would do better in the game I am playing or does the zen really perform better. And as I mentioned, I notice a big lack of chance of pulling in big bets with zen compare tho hilo.

Which ZEN are you using? 1/4DTc 'True Edge Zen, or 1983 1DTC Zen? zg

 

[li_ka_shing168]

i am using the old one the original one, i divide by remaining deck. not true edge, i divide like hilo to obtain tc in zen

 

[itrack]

Win Loss %

if you look at your multiple deck sims, the win/loss % at TC of 0 are significantly off. The Hi lo sim is only -.13 , Also, the spread with the zen count reaches its max bet at a much lower advantage than the hi-lo sim, and this is probably why the score is lower. Do you possibly have different rules set for the two sims?

 

[li_ka_shing168]

if you look at your multiple deck sims, the win/loss % at TC of 0 are significantly off. The Hi lo sim is only -.13 , Also, the spread with the zen count reaches its max bet at a much lower advantage than the hi-lo sim, and this is probably why the score is lower. Do you possibly have different rules set for the two sims?

no it is exactly the same rule

 

[li_ka_shing168]

well the conclusion i need to know is, if it will be better to backcount this kind of 8 decks game with a spread of 1-40 with hilo or with zen. considering the fact that i give both 3% ROR. the optimal betting ramp arent the same but i want to keep the ROR at 3%. like I said. the result on the simulation shows that zen wins more money. but i just dont get enough chances to pull the big bets out.