Zman's article on detection of an holecarder

[Deleted member 3798]

Zman's article on detection of an holecarder

In the article below, Zman attempted to teach AP-catchers how to detect an holecarder. Here are his nuts and bolts of holecarder-detection:

A player is an holecarder when
1) he is relatively not known to the shop,
2) he's winning big, and
3) he plays big only with a specific dealer, i.e., playing big with the Regular, not the Relief.

What do you guys think? Zman wants your feedbacks so that he can fine tune his nuts and bolts:grin:. His AOL email address can be found in his article.

http://www.worldgameprotection.com/archive/2009-11/casino-ology.pdf
The link is provided by (the name is removed to preserve anonymity).

 

[Nazgul]

I think the article is fantastic and I'm sure my holecarding brethren, young and old, will agree.

 

[Diver]

cookie anyone?

I know, it's somewhat paranoid to think any ID data picked up by the cookies would ever be matched against players club databases. Most people probably don't have their real name associated with their PC anyway.

 

[StandardDeviant]

I know, it's somewhat paranoid to think any ID data picked up by the cookies would ever be matched against players club databases. Most people probably don't have their real name associated with their PC anyway.

Hmmm interesting thought

 

[aslan]

Zman's article on detection of an holecarder

In the article below, Zman attempted to teach AP-catchers how to detect an holecarder. Here are his nuts and bolts of holecarder-detection:

A player is an holecarder when
1) he is relatively not known to the shop,
2) he's winning big, and
3) he plays big only with a specific dealer, i.e., playing big with the Regular, not the Relief.

What do you guys think? Zman wants your feedbacks so that he can fine tune his nuts and bolts:grin:. His AOL email address can be found in his article.

http://www.worldgameprotection.com/archive/2009-11/casino-ology.pdf
The link is provided by (the name is removed to preserve anonymity).

Would a joint that does not take the trouble to properly train their dealers in how to avoid flashing their hole card be that interested in rules of thumb for ID-ing hole-carders? Detection is the "second" line of defense. Proper training is the first and primary line of defense. Do the first, and the second is hardly worth the effort. Does anyone disagree?

 

[PrinceDragon]

Would a joint that does not take the trouble to properly train their dealers in how to avoid flashing their hole card be that interested in rules of thumb for ID-ing hole-carders? Detection is the "second" line of defense. Proper training is the first and primary line of defense. Do the first, and the second is hardly worth the effort. Does anyone disagree?

I agree with your opinion.

But the thing is,in some casinos,dealers turnover rate is so high,they pretty much just pick people up on the street,and woolaa,there is your dealer:grin:

 

[aslan]

I agree with your opinion.

But the thing is,in some casinos,dealers turnover rate is so high,they pretty much just pick people up on the street,and woolaa,there is your dealer:grin:

I defer to your experience. I need to find these casinos because I am tiring of the solely counting approach to AP. I would appreciate any tips you might give me in a PM. For example, what are the best places to search for good hole carding opportunities--in Vegas: small casinos, off-strip casinos, downtown casinos, certain large casinos? Nearby towns? Indian casinos? Where? Mississippi casinos? East coast casinos? Other?

What I find with the purely counting approach is that although it is "fulfilling" to beat the house, it is too little compared to the amount of bankroll that must be dedicated to the task. The hole carding and card tracking techniques seem to offer far better opportunities to win big with a lot less inherent risk, although intuitively I sense the obstacle of too much greed that must be the bane of any AP technique. Take what the circumstances give and no more has always been my guideline--getting greedy will only bring unneeded losses and grief has always been my experience.

 

[Sonny]

Detection is the "second" line of defense. Proper training is the first and primary line of defense. Do the first, and the second is hardly worth the effort. Does anyone disagree?

I agree, but it's not that simple. The problem is that the ability to train a dealer not to expose his holecard requires the ability to spot a flashing dealer's holecard. If you're not a good spotter, how can you be a good trainer? And even if the dealers are trained properly, what's to stop them from getting lazy or developing bad habits during their careers? You would need experienced spotters to both train the dealers and to supervise them. Where are you going to find that many experienced holecarders? And why would they be willing to fix the dealers they are making a living off of?

The ability to spot a holecarding player is often much easier than spotting a holecarding dealer, hence the importance of detection. You can teach a person to spot a holecard player much faster and more reliably than you can teach them to spot holecards.

That brings us to the final problem: training the trainers! Zender is in a tricky business. He is in the business of information. People call him because he has information and experience that they need. People pay for his workshops because they need that information to do their jobs. As soon as he gives away all of his information, he has put himself out of business. If everybody knows how to detect a holecard player then he won't be getting calls about that anymore. Information like that tends to spread very quickly so most people realize the value of keeping it concealed from public sources. Everyone is trying to make money using that information - the casinos, the casino employees, the casino contractors, the APs - but none of them want to give up any of their best information because it is how they derive their value. The difference is that a general lack of information hurts the casino industry greatly while it benefits the AP community greatly. You have an inverse relationship that naturally favors the APs, but my personal opinions on this is beyond the scope of this discussion.

-Sonny-

 

[aslan]

I agree, but it's not that simple. The problem is that the ability to train a dealer not to expose his holecard requires the ability to spot a flashing dealer's holecard. If you're not a good spotter, how can you be a good trainer? And even if the dealers are trained properly, what's to stop them from getting lazy or developing bad habits during their careers? You would need experienced spotters to both train the dealers and to supervise them. Where are you going to find that many experienced holecarders? And why would they be willing to fix the dealers they are making a living off of?

The ability to spot a holecarding player is often much easier than spotting a holecarding dealer, hence the importance of detection. You can teach a person to spot a holecard player much faster and more reliably than you can teach them to spot holecards.

That brings us to the final problem: training the trainers! Zender is in a tricky business. He is in the business of information. People call him because he has information and experience that they need. People pay for his workshops because they need that information to do their jobs. As soon as he gives away all of his information, he has put himself out of business. If everybody knows how to detect a holecard player then he won't be getting calls about that anymore. Information like that tends to spread very quickly so most people realize the value of keeping it concealed from public sources. Everyone is trying to make money using that information - the casinos, the casino employees, the casino contractors, the APs - but none of them want to give up any of their best information because it is how they derive their value. The difference is that a general lack of information hurts the casino industry greatly while it benefits the AP community greatly. You have an inverse relationship that naturally favors the APs, but my personal opinions on this is beyond the scope of this discussion.

-Sonny-

Very well said. I admit that most of my thought on hole-carding is based on my experience with mostly top drawer casinos. I have tried to detect hole card opportunities at these casinos only to observe just how well trained the dealers are. They, of course, do benefit by Zender workshops--I know this for a fact. Whether it is surveillance people passing on the information--training the dealers, or dealers obraining direct Zender (and other professional) training, I don't know. Also, I myself do not have any training whatsoever in hole-carding, but when I don't even see the possibility of a "glimmer," I assume that hole carding is impossible in such a situation. I myself do want to pursue hole carding and card tracking, because I don't like the ratio of bankroll to payoff using conventional card counting techniques. But I really don't know where to begin.

Hole carding seems to me to require two ingredients--one, practice recognizing the value of a card with the slightest glimmer of it, and two, knowing where to find the casinos where the possibility of hole carding is most favorable.

As for card tracking and steering, I need to obtain reading materials that are honest and informative, and then, tons of practice duplicating the typical shuffles and seeing how it all shakes out, including, as AM suggest, tracking multiple key cards each shoe.

Any suggestions on your part would be greatly appreciated, either on Forum or by PM. In any case, thanks for your response. It was very interesting and informative.

 

[Martin Gayle]

I think back to the card counting scene in Rain Man. The eye-in-the-sky lists off "he is not catching the hole card" when he is trying to figure out what the brothers are doing.

However fiction, the eye should be able to "spot" a hole carding dealer. Even Grosjean says how to spot a holecarder without looking at the card. That said I am sure there are critters that can't spot a dealer just as there are players that can't see it.

I am sure it is a shock and betrayal to dealers and critters alike when they get hit by a hole carder team. Big players who win are alot of fun for everyone, especially when they will be making wild plays that are consistent with holecarding. If you cannot figure out what is going on you the pit just goes with it until the inevitable happens. It only takes one PC to know how to spot a hole carding dealer.

EDIT
And...
I holeheartedly disagree with Zender's method of spotting a holecarder.

 

[aslan]

I think back to the card counting scene in Rain Man. The eye-in-the-sky lists off "he is not catching the hole card" when he is trying to figure out what the brothers are doing.

However fiction, the eye should be able to "spot" a hole carding dealer. Even Grosjean says how to spot a holecarder without looking at the card. That said I am sure there are critters that can't spot a dealer just as there are players that can't see it.

I am sure it is a shock and betrayal to dealers and critters alike when they get hit by a hole carder team. Big players who win are alot of fun for everyone, especially when they will be making wild plays that are consistent with holecarding. If you cannot figure out what is going on you the pit just goes with it until the inevitable happens. It only takes one PC to know how to spot a hole carding dealer.

EDIT
And...
I holeheartedly disagree with Zender's method of spotting a holecarder.

Refresh my memory. What did Zender say?

 

[Martin Gayle]

Paraphrased in first post of this thread

 

[aslan]

Paraphrased in first post of this thread

Thanks.

Presumption of a holecarder, huh? lol I guess it would be all right if he said, "A person "might be" a holecarder if..."

If surveillance is so inept that they can't "audit" the dealer in question, then no amount of rules and tips can help them. They will be backing off potential house revenues without a clue. In some houses, the eye is permitted to move to the floor for certain things. One of them should be to check out any suspected dealer who might be flashing his or her hole card. If a house is too strapped to provide proper training for dealers and follow up to ensure proper implementation, then they can't afford a Zender course in the first place.

 

[ExhibitCAA]

As you label surveillance departments inept for their inability to instantly pick off the HC player, keep in mind that card counters don't pick it off either. I have played on at least three occasions with card counters at our table, and at least three other occasions with card counters on the adjacent table. We are obviously aware of the tells of our play, and can lay cover to minimize those tells, and mimic the lucky civilian to the greatest extent possible. And also, there is the magician's ultimate method to mask a trick, and I presume you know what that is. If not, ask in a chat sometime.

 

[aslan]

As you label surveillance departments inept for their inability to instantly pick off the HC player, keep in mind that card counters don't pick it off either. I have played on at least three occasions with card counters at our table, and at least three other occasions with card counters on the adjacent table. We are obviously aware of the tells of our play, and can lay cover to minimize those tells, and mimic the lucky civilian to the greatest extent possible. And also, there is the magician's ultimate method to mask a trick, and I presume you know what that is. If not, ask in a chat sometime.

I said "If surveillance is so inept that they can't "audit" the dealer in question," not the hole card player. What I mean is that good surveillance ought to be able to surveil their own dealers and determine whether they are performing as trained. Heck, they have the opportunity to wath them during their entire shift day after day. Find a dealer who has gotten sloppy and send them back to training [theoretically speaking].

 

[ExhibitCAA]

Feel free to change my post to "pick off the HC dealer" and the rest of my statement still stands. There are reasons that what u say is easier said than done.

(If a card is flashed in the forest, and no wise guy is there to see it, does it cost a dime?)

 

[aslan]

Feel free to change my post to "pick off the HC dealer" and the rest of my statement still stands. There are reasons that what u say is easier said than done.

(If a card is flashed in the forest, and no wise guy is there to see it, does it cost a dime?)

Maybe, so. But good form in shuffling and dealing is not all that hard to teach, and sloppiness is not all that hard to observe. I mean, c'mon now, don't you usually know right up front if you will have any luck glimpsing a hole card with a particular dealer? Maybe they should hire you to surveil their dealers, because I know you wouldn't have a bit of trouble. lol If you are only looking for a hole card opportunity, how long does it take you to decide not to sit down at a particular table? I don't think I am out in left field, but maybe I am. Others, please chime in. I admit I am not a hole card expert, but you have to be able to see at least a tiny glimmer no matter how good you are. Somebody save me! :laugh:

PS--I am not talking about a dealer who deliberately flashes his hole card. Is that what you mean? It can be near impossible to catch a crooked dealer.

 

[Martin Gayle]

In a majority of instances it will take one round to decide if it can be spotted. And by majority I by no means mean a vast majority.

 

[ExhibitCAA]

"I admit I am not a hole card expert, but ..."

You should stop right there. Now, I AM a hole-card expert, and while this is not a topic I will get into any further, I will say that though there is some truth to what you say, there are more things in casino and earth, Aslan, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

(And, no, I am not talking about a dealer who deliberately flashes the hole card.)

 

[aslan]

"I admit I am not a hole card expert, but ..."

You should stop right there. Now, I AM a hole-card expert, and while this is not a topic I will get into any further, I will say that though there is some truth to what you say, there are more things in casino and earth, Aslan, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

(And, no, I am not talking about a dealer who deliberately flashes the hole card.)

Don't be a wise guy. You should have stopped after saying there are more things.