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I hope the lawyer sues Mindplay out of existance. I totally agree that the casinos with the electronic Mindplay device are 100% able to alter the odds of the game. In addition, Mindplay provides them with a device which enables them to cheat the gamblers and leave no evidence. Once all of the cards are read into the computer and their order is known before they are dealt, the house has complete capability to cheat the gamblers without giving the gamblers or regulators an opportunity to detect it.
Here are just a couple of the many ways:
1. Signal someone at the table to “sit out a hand to change the luck of the cards” when sitting out will cause the dealer to get a blackjack.
2. Signal someone at 3rd base when to take a hit or stand so that the dealer makes a hand instead of busting.
This cheating doesn’t have to be widespread or happen all the time for it to be profitable. The casino could just concentrate on cheating the gamblers at the high limit tables. As far as the gamblers know, they are just having some bad luck and will blame it on the other player that is making dumb plays.
Here’s the real reason why Mindplay should be shut down. It’s not a matter of whether or not the casinos are signalling for shuffles or signalling to cheat the gamblers, it’s a matter of Mindplay creating the capability to change the odds and cheat the players. Mindplay gives the casinos absolute power to control not just the game, but the outcome of the game. We all know that absolute power corrupts, absolutely. If the capability to cheat exists, is easy, and hard to detect, some casino employee will do it, and then all hell will break loose.
The debacle regarding MindPlay is just another attempt by the casinos to BREAK the law. NRS 465.075 is VERY clear – “It is unlawful for ANY PERSON … to use, any device to assist”
Any person means JUST that. The Gaming Board’s contention that a casino is NOT a person is fallacious.
Remember the ill-fated SafeJack game at Ballys Vegas a few years ago? Has anyone ever thought to ask WHY that game seems to have been discontinued?
How have you been. I used to run the Bally’s-Tunica tournaments. First with Dan O’Conner and then on my own if you remember. I have since moved back to MN and gotten in the mortgage business.
I actually know Rob Winkler personally. Wow, this sounds like quite the debacle! I can’t beleive how badly things went and that they threw you off the property. That is crazy!
It is too bad our “crew” of solid casino guys got all broken up by mergers and acqusitions as we used to have one of the best groups ever with Mav, Adolph, Mike Smith, Barbara Williams, Kevin Munn, Skip Perry and on and on. Those were the good old days.
I have seen you on the Game Show Network. It looks like this Blackjack Tournament stuff is running strong.
I will say I don’t miss running the tournaments as it was a ton of work and quite a bit of stress. Rob had to be feeling a ton of heat on this one. Ouch!
Take care and put me on your email list for your stories and updates as I find them interesting.
Tim Rogge former Tournament Director @ Bally’s Tunica
Hey Tim, You’re right. The old days in Tunica featured some really excellent tournament action. Some of the names you mentioned are still around running tournaments in the area, but as you note, much of the crew has been split up and moved around with all the mergers.
News flash about casinos–they’re all a bunch of crooks. Things never change. Or not much, at least they probably won’t kill or maim you, like the wiseguys running the old joints sometimes did.
Unfortunately, I think you take your chances any time you make a high profile play like entering a blackjack or poker tournament.
We can only hope that Mississippi and the other states in which casino gambling is spreading won’t end up having utter whores for politicians and judges, like in Nevada. (Gambling has a poisoning effect on government, wherever it becomes prominent.) Maybe people mistreated like you were will have a ghost of a chance of getting relief. And Harrah’s did defraud you, in more ways than one. First there was the bush league reneging on the $100 promo chip promise. More importantly, you invested a lot of time and travel expense relying on Harrah’s promise that you could enter the tournament. For some reason, casinos don’t think that the common law of contract and deceit apply to them. They also don’t think that they’re subject to the ancient principle putting a heightened duty on innkeepers, once they have accepted guests, to protect them from the hazards of the night.
But unfortunately, I wouldn’t put much faith in the government or the courts being effective in protecting your rights, even under the best of circumstances. Much better to learn from the experience of others, to consider the casino’s reputation, and in turn to let others know of how you were treated.
I do think that on one point, you and the other players could have better protected yourselves by reading the fine print. That business about “adding one additional player to the final table” should have been reason to run, not walk away from this tournament. That was just paying what they owed another player out of your entry fees. What if Harrah’s put on a tournament, and nobody came?
Ken, I really feel for you. You’re a good guy and deserve to be treated better. I think it’s about time that the pros should get together and create a casino designed by players. Granted it would be expensive, but we’d wipe out the competition before long.
your treatment only goes to show how stuipd some bean counters are. years ago friends and us went to the grand in Tunica ,”comped” weekend. i was playing black ,and after about 2 hours our first session the house told me they wanted him and me out. this was in 1998 and have NO DESIRE to EVER set foot in tunica again.
As Tim Rogge noted above, things used to be different in this market. He mentions the old crew, including “Mav”, actually two of them. Nick Mavromatis is now the Regional Director of Player Development foe Resorts and Ballys, and based at Resorts Tunica. Mike is at Fitzgeralds. And while these are some of the smaller properties in the market, the respect and courtesy you get from the staffs make them far more pleasurable than at any of the Harrah’s casinos. And, thankfully, Resorts has eliminated ALL 6-5 of the BJ games in their casino. Try a side trip there and tell Nick I sent you over.
Hi Ken: Sorry to hear about your Tunica episode. Commend you for calling the Gaming Board. Would like to share my experience at LV Hilton. As you know the Chips I won at the Hilton BJ tournament were originally given with the understanding ( got a letter in Supoport of it) that they could be played until lost. However, they changed the rules — that after march 2007, they be good only for one time usage– i.e. they would take the chip after payment even if you win. I was never notified of this, so I appealed to the Nevada Gaming Board and rule in my favour. I have been give until September 15 to use up my chips. Another New development today– I have been stopped from entering the 100K pai Gow, even sfter I won the entry by palying the tables. I have am seeking the help of the Gaming Board again. More later
Hi. I really enjoy playing Blackjack (a real light wieght, though – small bankroll, $10-15.00 minimum tables) I watched the UBT today and enjoyed the play except for the disrespectful antics of “Hollywood Dave.” I know his obnoxious behavior is intended to rattle the other players (I applaude Erlinda for telling him to shut up in today’s match, and congrats to her for winning!) My guess is that they allow this behavior because some folks who may not watch otherwise, might tune in to see what he’ll do next. I don’t think this should be permitted due to the distraction it creates for other players and the total disrespect he displays toward other players. Also, I thought there was a 10 second window for the players to act on their hand. It appeared that with at least one hand he started his show and took a long time to get around to playing his hand. He should have forfeited the hand! In fact, in my opinion, as soon as he begins his craziness he should be told to sit down, shut up and respect the other players or be told to leave!
Whether WSOB will return for a fifth season is currently up in the air. Unlike previous years, no qualifying tournaments for 2008 have been announced so far. Frankly, it doesn’t look promising.
GSN is now the home of the World Poker Tour on TV, and may be shifting their focus towards poker at the expense of blackjack. I hope not, but we’ll see.
Meanwhile, if any information becomes available about how to qualify for future WSOB events, it will be widely discussed over at my tournament site BlackjackTournaments.com
Actually rob, ALL the entry fee money is paid out in prize money and the casinos sometimes add their own money into the pot. I think this is probably how the Grand tourneys are as they based them on our old tourney from Ballys.
The host these tourneys with the thought that their gaming revenue on the slots and tables will increase with the influx of tournament players that come to their properties. Some of the tournament players do not make a single bet during their stay. So, when you add in gift, meals, rooms, food for tournament players there is potential that the host casino could take a big bath on the whole deal.
You and WRX above need to get some of the paranoia out of your heads that the casinos are crooks and cheats and are out to “get you”. They have a built in edge (outside of tournaments) and just want the games to be run within guidelines. When mistakes are made they try to rectify them as best they can without “hurting” either the house or the players. Obviuosly some situations are handled better than others. It is not always easy to make the very best decision when it has to be made very quickly and of coarse some of the employees are more experienced and/or sharper than others.
Of coarse the players ALWAYS subscribe to “you should pay the table” every time a mistake is made. That is just not going to happen. They try to come up with equitable decisions as best they can.
Hi Ken, great site. UBT rocks also. Great to see our favourite game hitting prime time. All the action, all the excitement, all in one place! Stay lucky!
I hope the lawyer sues Mindplay out of existance. I totally agree that the casinos with the electronic Mindplay device are 100% able to alter the odds of the game. In addition, Mindplay provides them with a device which enables them to cheat the gamblers and leave no evidence. Once all of the cards are read into the computer and their order is known before they are dealt, the house has complete capability to cheat the gamblers without giving the gamblers or regulators an opportunity to detect it.
Here are just a couple of the many ways:
1. Signal someone at the table to “sit out a hand to change the luck of the cards” when sitting out will cause the dealer to get a blackjack.
2. Signal someone at 3rd base when to take a hit or stand so that the dealer makes a hand instead of busting.
This cheating doesn’t have to be widespread or happen all the time for it to be profitable. The casino could just concentrate on cheating the gamblers at the high limit tables. As far as the gamblers know, they are just having some bad luck and will blame it on the other player that is making dumb plays.
Here’s the real reason why Mindplay should be shut down. It’s not a matter of whether or not the casinos are signalling for shuffles or signalling to cheat the gamblers, it’s a matter of Mindplay creating the capability to change the odds and cheat the players. Mindplay gives the casinos absolute power to control not just the game, but the outcome of the game. We all know that absolute power corrupts, absolutely. If the capability to cheat exists, is easy, and hard to detect, some casino employee will do it, and then all hell will break loose.
The debacle regarding MindPlay is just another attempt by the casinos to BREAK the law. NRS 465.075 is VERY clear – “It is unlawful for ANY PERSON … to use, any device to assist”
Any person means JUST that. The Gaming Board’s contention that a casino is NOT a person is fallacious.
Remember the ill-fated SafeJack game at Ballys Vegas a few years ago? Has anyone ever thought to ask WHY that game seems to have been discontinued?
Sometime ago, I wrote an Op/Ed on preferential shuffling (See: http://www.borisbj21.com/Page21/page21e1.html).
Amazingly enough, that discussion is more pertinent than ever.
Has anyone actually had their play “pulled up” because of MindPlay? If so, please write me about it at: [email protected].
The preferential shuffling issue is FAR from over, don’tcha think?
– Ron Fitch (a.k.a. “Boris”)
http://www.borisbj21.com.
Well, its about time you fired up the blog again! zg
I’m so tired of barring and illegal gambling online etc. Honestly, what is the NEXT course of action for players?
kick
Hi Ken,
How have you been. I used to run the Bally’s-Tunica tournaments. First with Dan O’Conner and then on my own if you remember. I have since moved back to MN and gotten in the mortgage business.
I actually know Rob Winkler personally. Wow, this sounds like quite the debacle! I can’t beleive how badly things went and that they threw you off the property. That is crazy!
It is too bad our “crew” of solid casino guys got all broken up by mergers and acqusitions as we used to have one of the best groups ever with Mav, Adolph, Mike Smith, Barbara Williams, Kevin Munn, Skip Perry and on and on. Those were the good old days.
I have seen you on the Game Show Network. It looks like this Blackjack Tournament stuff is running strong.
I will say I don’t miss running the tournaments as it was a ton of work and quite a bit of stress. Rob had to be feeling a ton of heat on this one. Ouch!
Take care and put me on your email list for your stories and updates as I find them interesting.
Tim Rogge
former Tournament Director @ Bally’s Tunica
Hey Tim,
You’re right. The old days in Tunica featured some really excellent tournament action. Some of the names you mentioned are still around running tournaments in the area, but as you note, much of the crew has been split up and moved around with all the mergers.
News flash about casinos–they’re all a bunch of crooks. Things never change. Or not much, at least they probably won’t kill or maim you, like the wiseguys running the old joints sometimes did.
Unfortunately, I think you take your chances any time you make a high profile play like entering a blackjack or poker tournament.
We can only hope that Mississippi and the other states in which casino gambling is spreading won’t end up having utter whores for politicians and judges, like in Nevada. (Gambling has a poisoning effect on government, wherever it becomes prominent.) Maybe people mistreated like you were will have a ghost of a chance of getting relief. And Harrah’s did defraud you, in more ways than one. First there was the bush league reneging on the $100 promo chip promise. More importantly, you invested a lot of time and travel expense relying on Harrah’s promise that you could enter the tournament. For some reason, casinos don’t think that the common law of contract and deceit apply to them. They also don’t think that they’re subject to the ancient principle putting a heightened duty on innkeepers, once they have accepted guests, to protect them from the hazards of the night.
But unfortunately, I wouldn’t put much faith in the government or the courts being effective in protecting your rights, even under the best of circumstances. Much better to learn from the experience of others, to consider the casino’s reputation, and in turn to let others know of how you were treated.
I do think that on one point, you and the other players could have better protected yourselves by reading the fine print. That business about “adding one additional player to the final table” should have been reason to run, not walk away from this tournament. That was just paying what they owed another player out of your entry fees. What if Harrah’s put on a tournament, and nobody came?
Good story, thanks.
Ken,
I really feel for you. You’re a good guy and deserve to be treated better. I think it’s about time that the pros should get together and create a casino designed by players. Granted it would be expensive, but we’d wipe out the competition before long.
your treatment only goes to show how stuipd some bean counters are. years ago friends and us went to the grand in Tunica ,”comped” weekend. i was playing black ,and after about 2 hours our first session the house told me they wanted him and me out. this was in 1998 and have NO DESIRE to EVER set foot in tunica again.
As Tim Rogge noted above, things used to be different in this market. He mentions the old crew, including “Mav”, actually two of them. Nick Mavromatis is now the Regional Director of Player Development foe Resorts and Ballys, and based at Resorts Tunica. Mike is at Fitzgeralds. And while these are some of the smaller properties in the market, the respect and courtesy you get from the staffs make them far more pleasurable than at any of the Harrah’s casinos. And, thankfully, Resorts has eliminated ALL 6-5 of the BJ games in their casino. Try a side trip there and tell Nick I sent you over.
Amazing story. But what do they say in Arkansas,”Thank God for Mississippi”(Or they would be ranked #50)
Hi Ken: Sorry to hear about your Tunica episode. Commend you for calling the Gaming Board. Would like to share my experience at LV Hilton. As you know the Chips I won at the Hilton BJ tournament were originally given with the understanding ( got a letter in Supoport of it) that they could be played until lost. However, they changed the rules — that after march 2007, they be good only for one time usage– i.e. they would take the chip after payment even if you win. I was never notified of this, so I appealed to the Nevada Gaming Board and rule in my favour. I have been give until September 15 to use up my chips.
Another New development today– I have been stopped from entering the 100K pai Gow, even sfter I won the entry by palying the tables. I have am seeking the help of the Gaming Board again. More later
with best wishes, surender
I don’t really know why the casino’s would care about “the way you play”. They make money from entry fee regardless. Sounds very dodgy.
odd
Hi. I really enjoy playing Blackjack (a real light wieght, though – small bankroll, $10-15.00 minimum tables) I watched the UBT today and enjoyed the play except for the disrespectful antics of “Hollywood Dave.” I know his obnoxious behavior is intended to rattle the other players (I applaude Erlinda for telling him to shut up in today’s match, and congrats to her for winning!) My guess is that they allow this behavior because some folks who may not watch otherwise, might tune in to see what he’ll do next. I don’t think this should be permitted due to the distraction it creates for other players and the total disrespect he displays toward other players. Also, I thought there was a 10 second window for the players to act on their hand. It appeared that with at least one hand he started his show and took a long time to get around to playing his hand. He should have forfeited the hand! In fact, in my opinion, as soon as he begins his craziness he should be told to sit down, shut up and respect the other players or be told to leave!
How does on get invited to WSOB?? Also the one deck at Ceasers AC has been terrific,,,,,,,,,,,,u can overcome the odds,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jan
Whether WSOB will return for a fifth season is currently up in the air. Unlike previous years, no qualifying tournaments for 2008 have been announced so far. Frankly, it doesn’t look promising.
GSN is now the home of the World Poker Tour on TV, and may be shifting their focus towards poker at the expense of blackjack. I hope not, but we’ll see.
Meanwhile, if any information becomes available about how to qualify for future WSOB events, it will be widely discussed over at my tournament site BlackjackTournaments.com
Actually rob, ALL the entry fee money is paid out in prize money and the casinos sometimes add their own money into the pot. I think this is probably how the Grand tourneys are as they based them on our old tourney from Ballys.
The host these tourneys with the thought that their gaming revenue on the slots and tables will increase with the influx of tournament players that come to their properties. Some of the tournament players do not make a single bet during their stay. So, when you add in gift, meals, rooms, food for tournament players there is potential that the host casino could take a big bath on the whole deal.
You and WRX above need to get some of the paranoia out of your heads that the casinos are crooks and cheats and are out to “get you”. They have a built in edge (outside of tournaments) and just want the games to be run within guidelines. When mistakes are made they try to rectify them as best they can without “hurting” either the house or the players. Obviuosly some situations are handled better than others. It is not always easy to make the very best decision when it has to be made very quickly and of coarse some of the employees are more experienced and/or sharper than others.
Of coarse the players ALWAYS subscribe to “you should pay the table” every time a mistake is made. That is just not going to happen. They try to come up with equitable decisions as best they can.
CBS?
can i watch it out of the US?
Hi Ken, great site. UBT rocks also. Great to see our favourite game hitting prime time. All the action, all the excitement, all in one place! Stay lucky!
Glad I didn’t get involved in that tournment I had to work that weekend.