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I’ve been learning to card count. I’m using the Hi-Lo system. (But I’m looking at the TKO system as well.) I’m dealing one deck and keeping track of my outcome as well as the time it takes me to get through a deck. My best so far is 40 seconds.
There are three questions I have for you…
1. How to best compute “decks dealt” by just looking at the discard shoe?
2. In my second-to-last casino visit I did very well BUT… one of the other players at the table actually said “what are you doing man? Counting cards?” I about $hat my pants! So, how to best “cover up” the fact?
3. What are your thoughts on the TKO system by Daniel Dravot?
Thanks,
GV
1. Estimating the number of decks in the discard tray is a skill that you can practice at home. Buy a few used decks from a casino gift shop, and try guessing how many cards are in various sized stacks. You don’t have to be super-accurate. Getting within a half deck accuracy should be good enough.
2. At low bet amounts, you cannot afford so-called camouflage to hide your tactics. Just keep your sessions at any single table short.
3. KO is roughly equal in strength to Hi-Lo, and most people find it easier. TKO improves on it further, but I would make sure you are very comfortable with regular KO first. You can add the TKO ideas later.
Good luck, and good cards! -Ken-
Ken Smith is the only knowledgable player here. I don’t count but I play solid basic strategy and I press like a maniac until I reach the table max. I’m from the school of play to win big. I’ll break my bankroll up into 6 or 8 sessions usually around 600 bucks. I start at a hundred a hand. If I lose three in a row I’m gone. My goal is to press to the table max while pulling back enough money to double or split on any given bet amount. I play for streaks. I want to win 9+ hands in a row. It has happened. I usually don’t play longer than 10 to 20 minutes at a given time. It’s been great. I’ve won big. I’ve lost too. It’s a blast when a streak happens and you’ve got 20 people cheering for you with a 5 or 6 thousand dollar bet up there. Win or lose. It’s a major rush.
Say for example I was at a $15 minimum table, would you recommend using the same spread like the one listed. So $5 would be $15, $10 would be $30 etc etc?
Also, say for example I had a bankroll where I could afford to bet $20 – $240. If I was at a $5 table should I just bet $5 when the count is 1 or less and then jump to $40 when it get to 2. Other than maybe raising casino interest in your play, would this be a good strategy
Yes, you can think of spreads in terms of bet multiples no matter what the table minimum is. Of course, your bankroll needs to be proportionally larger too.
For your second question, a bigger spread will create a bigger return. In short, the less you can bet into bad counts and the more you can bet into good counts directly translate into better return. Larger spreads also create larger swings, in many cases much larger. So make sure you understand the bankroll required.
Luckily, the pit-bosses and THEIR bosses here in Mesquite seem to have a super-low opinion of the 6:5 games, so I doubt we’ll be seeing them for a while…
Is there an iOS app version of this trainer for my iPad?
I stumbled across this webpage on a Google search, and I won’t be back here to check message replies.
Please email your response.
Hi, thank you very much for the article, it has been very helpful.
I have a question about the difference between 10-6 and 9-7 vs 10. You explain the difference by the fact that in the 10-6 vs 10 hand these are two extra 10’s out of the game. But it seems to me that those two tens should already have been counted in to your current true count and thus by differentiating between the two hands you one would be double counting?
In other words, Why should I play differently in these two situations: 1) dealer: 10-x, me: 10-6, player 2: 9-7 and 2) dealer: 10-x, me; 9-7, player 2; 10-6. Both situations would influence the count in exactly the same way, wouldn’t they?
Good question. I don’t see the point in having separate indexes for those two specific hands either. And, as noted in another reply, I have not verified the accuracy of these Hi-Opt 1 indexes, and I am quite skeptical of the big difference between (10,6) and (9,7) vs T. If single deck is in your plans, I would look around for verification before using either of those. If you use Hi-Lo instead, the indexes on my advanced card set are very well-tested. I trust them much more.
Really nice interview Ken, I agree that counting prepares the mindset for other casino games. I still prefer the blackjack strategy guides on this site over POGGs ones, though he has some nice video poker ones. K.
I assume you are asking about accessing the charts on your smartphone in the casino. I do not recommend that. In the US, there are laws prohibiting the use of devices in gambling. Most of these laws are based on the Nevada version, which is written in a way that it could be interpreted to mean even something as harmless as looking up a strategy. You don’t want to be the test case for this. If you want access to the strategy in the casino, get a plastic card instead.
Hello. I have a question that I haven’t been able to find an answer too. Might be to obvious.
Scenario 6D H17 game
My first 2 cards are A6 vs 10. I hit and get a 9 and now I have a total of 16
So 16 vs 10. Now I should surrender correct?
In my practice apps it says I played it wrong but 16 vs 10 should be a surrender.
Does basic strategy not apply In this scenario?
Thanks very much for all the help
Paul
If you were allowed to surrender (Ace,6,9) vs T, it would be the correct play. Unfortunately, surrender is only allowed on your first two cards, before any other action is taken. You don’t mention what practice app you are using, but it should not even be providing a button for surrender in this case.
Thanks
That was the main question. Whether or not you could surrender after you have already taken a hit.
I initially thought that’s what “late” surrender was.
But I know now that late surrender means after the dealer has checked his hole card when showing an ace.
The app I am using is 21-Pro. It keeps the count and keeps track of hands played using proper basic strategy.
Thanks again!
In many cases, when I say “small bets”, I mean either minimum bets or no more than double that. In some cases, when the entire table is making large bets, you can actually bet quite a bit more and still effectively be betting “small”. In general though, you do not want to make early bets that can risk you running out of chips.
I’ve been learning to card count. I’m using the Hi-Lo system. (But I’m looking at the TKO system as well.) I’m dealing one deck and keeping track of my outcome as well as the time it takes me to get through a deck. My best so far is 40 seconds.
There are three questions I have for you…
1. How to best compute “decks dealt” by just looking at the discard shoe?
2. In my second-to-last casino visit I did very well BUT… one of the other players at the table actually said “what are you doing man? Counting cards?” I about $hat my pants! So, how to best “cover up” the fact?
3. What are your thoughts on the TKO system by Daniel Dravot?
Thanks,
GV
1. Estimating the number of decks in the discard tray is a skill that you can practice at home. Buy a few used decks from a casino gift shop, and try guessing how many cards are in various sized stacks. You don’t have to be super-accurate. Getting within a half deck accuracy should be good enough.
2. At low bet amounts, you cannot afford so-called camouflage to hide your tactics. Just keep your sessions at any single table short.
3. KO is roughly equal in strength to Hi-Lo, and most people find it easier. TKO improves on it further, but I would make sure you are very comfortable with regular KO first. You can add the TKO ideas later.
Good luck, and good cards! -Ken-
Ken Smith is the only knowledgable player here. I don’t count but I play solid basic strategy and I press like a maniac until I reach the table max. I’m from the school of play to win big. I’ll break my bankroll up into 6 or 8 sessions usually around 600 bucks. I start at a hundred a hand. If I lose three in a row I’m gone. My goal is to press to the table max while pulling back enough money to double or split on any given bet amount. I play for streaks. I want to win 9+ hands in a row. It has happened. I usually don’t play longer than 10 to 20 minutes at a given time. It’s been great. I’ve won big. I’ve lost too. It’s a blast when a streak happens and you’ve got 20 people cheering for you with a 5 or 6 thousand dollar bet up there. Win or lose. It’s a major rush.
Hi Ken,
Say for example I was at a $15 minimum table, would you recommend using the same spread like the one listed. So $5 would be $15, $10 would be $30 etc etc?
Also, say for example I had a bankroll where I could afford to bet $20 – $240. If I was at a $5 table should I just bet $5 when the count is 1 or less and then jump to $40 when it get to 2. Other than maybe raising casino interest in your play, would this be a good strategy
Yes, you can think of spreads in terms of bet multiples no matter what the table minimum is. Of course, your bankroll needs to be proportionally larger too.
For your second question, a bigger spread will create a bigger return. In short, the less you can bet into bad counts and the more you can bet into good counts directly translate into better return. Larger spreads also create larger swings, in many cases much larger. So make sure you understand the bankroll required.
Luckily, the pit-bosses and THEIR bosses here in Mesquite seem to have a super-low opinion of the 6:5 games, so I doubt we’ll be seeing them for a while…
Is there an iOS app version of this trainer for my iPad?
I stumbled across this webpage on a Google search, and I won’t be back here to check message replies.
Please email your response.
The new mobile-friendly version is coming along slowly. I now think early Summer is the target. (Emailed also as requested.)
Hi, thank you very much for the article, it has been very helpful.
I have a question about the difference between 10-6 and 9-7 vs 10. You explain the difference by the fact that in the 10-6 vs 10 hand these are two extra 10’s out of the game. But it seems to me that those two tens should already have been counted in to your current true count and thus by differentiating between the two hands you one would be double counting?
In other words, Why should I play differently in these two situations: 1) dealer: 10-x, me: 10-6, player 2: 9-7 and 2) dealer: 10-x, me; 9-7, player 2; 10-6. Both situations would influence the count in exactly the same way, wouldn’t they?
Good question. I don’t see the point in having separate indexes for those two specific hands either. And, as noted in another reply, I have not verified the accuracy of these Hi-Opt 1 indexes, and I am quite skeptical of the big difference between (10,6) and (9,7) vs T. If single deck is in your plans, I would look around for verification before using either of those. If you use Hi-Lo instead, the indexes on my advanced card set are very well-tested. I trust them much more.
Really nice interview Ken, I agree that counting prepares the mindset for other casino games. I still prefer the blackjack strategy guides on this site over POGGs ones, though he has some nice video poker ones. K.
can I bring your black jack strategy engine in the casino? or is it not allowed?
I assume you are asking about accessing the charts on your smartphone in the casino. I do not recommend that. In the US, there are laws prohibiting the use of devices in gambling. Most of these laws are based on the Nevada version, which is written in a way that it could be interpreted to mean even something as harmless as looking up a strategy. You don’t want to be the test case for this. If you want access to the strategy in the casino, get a plastic card instead.
I see, you got a really good thing over here 🙂
thanks..
Hello. I have a question that I haven’t been able to find an answer too. Might be to obvious.
Scenario 6D H17 game
My first 2 cards are A6 vs 10. I hit and get a 9 and now I have a total of 16
So 16 vs 10. Now I should surrender correct?
In my practice apps it says I played it wrong but 16 vs 10 should be a surrender.
Does basic strategy not apply In this scenario?
Thanks very much for all the help
Paul
If you were allowed to surrender (Ace,6,9) vs T, it would be the correct play. Unfortunately, surrender is only allowed on your first two cards, before any other action is taken. You don’t mention what practice app you are using, but it should not even be providing a button for surrender in this case.
Thanks
That was the main question. Whether or not you could surrender after you have already taken a hit.
I initially thought that’s what “late” surrender was.
But I know now that late surrender means after the dealer has checked his hole card when showing an ace.
The app I am using is 21-Pro. It keeps the count and keeps track of hands played using proper basic strategy.
Thanks again!
Ken!
Hi I am thankful to come across your page very helpful. When you say bet small, what amount are you referring to, we use $25 chips.
In many cases, when I say “small bets”, I mean either minimum bets or no more than double that. In some cases, when the entire table is making large bets, you can actually bet quite a bit more and still effectively be betting “small”. In general though, you do not want to make early bets that can risk you running out of chips.
Yeah, that’s the one, though the nuances are slightly different. They also have Triple-Up.
I may have to hit up my younger sibling to bodge something together. XD