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so I was wondering about a few things, I cant find a free deviation chart for my game rules… everywhere asks for money any idea where I can get a free one? im looking for 6-8 deck dealer hits soft 17 resplit double after split
also I had one other thing I was over thinking lately when I have a soft 18 vs Dealers 3 4 5 6 I double dealers 7 I stay and vs a 9 10 A I hit I resently just found out im suppose to double vs a 2 aswell, however soft 18 vs a dealers 8 it sez stand, I was thinking I want to be hitting this for a free hit? and isn’t 18 a losing hand? soft 17 vs 7 I hit as a free hit don’t I treat it the same 18 vs 8 ? also uhm… when I have an unnatural soft 18 vs the dealers 2-6 are their different plays for each of these? like uhm.. if I have a A-2 Vs Dealers 4 basic strat sez hit, if I get a 5 and have 8 or 18, do I want to stop there or improve my hand ? I was thinking for some reason I wanted to keep improving it but im guessing im suppose to stay… but is this changed by the count being rich with high or low cards?
With a soft 18 made up of 3 or more cards, obviously you can no longer double, so just use the appropriate fallback strategy according to chart. With (A,3,4) vs a dealer 4 for example, you should stand. The charts from this site show that “DS”, meaning Double if you can, else Stand. You also asked why you should stand with Soft 18 vs 8. Well, the potential push is a big part of that, but in general try not to worry too much about the “why” of basic strategy. It just works that way. Technically, here are the results with A7v8: Standing returns 0.108 on average, hitting returns only 0.041.
Hello there Ken! Very, very useful website, and very, very useful replies from you. Thank you!
I have one question: Should i only join the tables that are starting the new shoe (no cards dealt)? So, I’m supposed to walk around and watch when the all cards are dealt, and then sit and play?
And, if I’m playing a 6-deck shoe, immidiately when the true count goes minus 1, i am supposed to walk away? That will happen pretty often right? You said before that it’s happening very often in a double deck game, but i assume that it’s happening in 6-deck as well?
I will probably have a bunch of questions for you in coming weeks, so be prepared 🙂 🙂
Yes, if you leave every 6-deck shoe at -1, you’ll be walking a lot. I personally never left at that minor a negative count. But if you can do it, it does really help the expected results. In 2-deck games, you can afford to play through a lot more negative counts and still have very good overall results. That is why the majority of my play has been at 2-deck games. They are simply a lot easier to beat. As for sitting down at a shoe already in progress, there’s no problem with it, although you are less likely to reach a positive situation. It’s like playing a game with poor penetration until the first shuffle. Just treat any discards when you begin as unseen decks, just like the cards still in the shoe. For that reason, it’s simpler and better to just come in immediately after a shuffle instead. But you don’t have to wait if you don’t want.
My casino rules are : surrender(im not sure if it’s early or late), 6-deck game, stand on S17(not sure either), 3 splits allowed, double any 2 cards, double after split allowed. Blackjack pay 3:2.
AND: Blackjack with the same symbol of the cards (hearts for example) pays 2:1. If the box has value of “21” with 7 cards in the box, it pays 5:1. If there are three sevens with the same symbol in the box, it pays 5:1.
I think those are pretty good rules. Maybe even slight edge is on my side? Can you tell me what should i change in my basic strategy because of the “AND” part above?
Also, my main question is: Bet spread is 2$ – 100$ here. Can you tell me what is the minimum bankroll for a 3h play? I read in GameMaster’s school that it should be 50x top bet, but i suppose that’s because the bet spread there was 5$-50$ which is pretty bad. I don’t have 5000$ dollars. I have like 500$ maximum. I want to train for a couple of months, and then go to the casino, and see what can I do. I hope there won’t be that losing streak right away. But I’m fully aware of it.
And if I am able to stay disciplined, and focused, i will probably go in the casino with much bigger bankroll, after some decent time of practice.
But I’m asking you if 200-300-500$ is enough for this first time, with this 2$-100$ betting spread, or I should just wait, and save more money?
Suited blackjack paying 2:1 adds 0.57% to the game. The base game you describe is around -0.58% if H17, or -0.36% if S17. Suited 777 paying 5:1 adds only 0.008%, and 7-card 21 is probably less than that. The overall net is a breakeven basic strategy game for H17, and +0.22% for S17 games. That’s a nice base advantage for the game. The only strategy change is don’t split your 7s if they are suited. Hit for the possible 5:1.
If you are betting a top bet of $100, even if you are willing to take the risk of losing the bank, you need to have the table stakes to double and split as needed. Long term, I’m more conservative than the GameMaster. I advocate a full bankroll of 100X your top bet instead of his 50x. But for short-term plays, accepting the very high risk of losing your entire stake, I still would not sit down at the table with less than 10 times my expected top bet for the session. And I would never make a single bet that I couldn’t afford to split and double on the two hands.
Sorry Ken, one more question, so you can answer them at once.
You said in previous replies in this topic that someone should stand on a true count 4 and 15 vs dealer’s 10? That’s not what basic strategy says. I mean, basic strategy doesn’t correlate to counting in any way. So I am wondering, what do you actually mean? I didn’t read whole “GameMaster’s school ” yet, so i suppose these are some of the advanced strategies?
Best regards man, and i apologize for being boring.
Basic strategy says hit 15vT. But card counters who know the deck is full of high cards (with a true count of +4 or higher) can utilize that information to know that standing is now better than hitting in that case. Each strategy decision has a tipping point like this (an index number), where the strategy changes if the remaining deck composition is far enough from average. But by all means, focus first on getting basic strategy down cold. When I started, I used card counting for over a year with just basic strategy before I added strategy changes to my game.
I’m in Brazil, where casinos are forbidden. So, I need to play in online casinos, using the live blackjack mode. The rules of the casino are: 8-deck game, cut off in the 50% of the shoe, stand on S17, double any 2 cards, double after split allowed, except for the double Aces (only one addition card). Blackjack pays 3:2.
My question is: With these conditions, is it possible to beat the dealer?
An 8-deck 50% game is very tough, but it could be beaten with a large enough spread if you are also willing to leave in any negative count. It’s going to be a frustrating grind, and because the edge will be so small, you could play perfectly for many hundreds of hours and still be behind due to bad luck. I wouldn’t waste time on this game.
I just started counting cards and i found 2 casinos with good rules but i don’t know which is better. In both casinos the dealer stands on S17, double on any 2 pairs is allowed, resplitting is allowed and after splitting aces you get one card and black jack pays 3:2. But the first one is an 8-deck with 85% penetration while the other is 4-deck with 65-75% penetration. Which one should i prefer?
The off-the-top difference between 4 decks and 8 decks is only around 0.1%. Because the penetration is so much better on your 8-deck game, I would choose the 8-deck game for card counting. (Just to be clear: Basic strategy players would be better off in the 4-deck game, since penetration doesn’t matter to them.)
Hey Ken, I have a question. In your basic stategy matrix you write to split the 8,8s against a T or A, but in a matrix for a UK casino would just hit. What is the difference between them?
In the UK, the dealer does not deal a hole card, and any doubles or splits are vulnerable to a possible dealer blackjack. In the US, the dealer checks for blackjack immediately before play begins, so you can’t double or split if they have a blackjack. This difference makes it unwise to double or split in the UK when the dealer has a ten or an Ace showing. One exception: In the UK, still split Aces against a dealer ten.
To get the appropriate strategy for these games, you can use the Strategy Engine and choose “No Peek”.
I have a question about which count is more preferred. I play in 2 casinos one of which is 4deck with 75% penetration and the other one is 6deck with 85% penetration. Obviously the best casino to choose is the second one but my question is that i use Hi-Lo count, but some say that the Knock-out count is more preferred for shoe games even if it is an unbalanced count, so which of these 2 counts is the best for these 2 casinos?? I find Hi-Lo profitable and easy but i find KO count easy as well, so does the KO count have more success than the Hi-Lo count for the casinos that i attend to??? Will i have more success by using KO count rather than Hi-Lo count in those casinos?? Please Help 🙂
Hey Ken i am counting card for almost a year and i always prefer to play alone with the dealer. Lets assume that the true count is +4 and i would bet 40 pounds. Is it better to open 2 or 3 boxes instead of playing in one box? Will i reduce the standard deviation? And will i have more or less profit in the long run?
I wouldn’t worry. If you are flat-betting with nothing else going on, you’ve just been lucky. As a flat-bettor, you can win a lot before they get worried. In bigger places, $50K cumulative win might be a problem. But if they don’t see anything suspicious in your play, think six figures. In small places that really sweat the money, it can be tough to win $10K without issues, even for players that appear to just be lucky. For this question, your mileage may vary.
Very interesting. Thanks for the words of wisdom, Ken.
so I was wondering about a few things, I cant find a free deviation chart for my game rules… everywhere asks for money any idea where I can get a free one? im looking for 6-8 deck dealer hits soft 17 resplit double after split
also I had one other thing I was over thinking lately when I have a soft 18 vs Dealers 3 4 5 6 I double dealers 7 I stay and vs a 9 10 A I hit I resently just found out im suppose to double vs a 2 aswell, however soft 18 vs a dealers 8 it sez stand, I was thinking I want to be hitting this for a free hit? and isn’t 18 a losing hand? soft 17 vs 7 I hit as a free hit don’t I treat it the same 18 vs 8 ? also uhm… when I have an unnatural soft 18 vs the dealers 2-6 are their different plays for each of these? like uhm.. if I have a A-2 Vs Dealers 4 basic strat sez hit, if I get a 5 and have 8 or 18, do I want to stop there or improve my hand ? I was thinking for some reason I wanted to keep improving it but im guessing im suppose to stay… but is this changed by the count being rich with high or low cards?
With a soft 18 made up of 3 or more cards, obviously you can no longer double, so just use the appropriate fallback strategy according to chart. With (A,3,4) vs a dealer 4 for example, you should stand. The charts from this site show that “DS”, meaning Double if you can, else Stand.
You also asked why you should stand with Soft 18 vs 8. Well, the potential push is a big part of that, but in general try not to worry too much about the “why” of basic strategy. It just works that way. Technically, here are the results with A7v8: Standing returns 0.108 on average, hitting returns only 0.041.
Hello there Ken!
Very, very useful website, and very, very useful replies from you. Thank you!
I have one question: Should i only join the tables that are starting the new shoe (no cards dealt)? So, I’m supposed to walk around and watch when the all cards are dealt, and then sit and play?
And, if I’m playing a 6-deck shoe, immidiately when the true count goes minus 1, i am supposed to walk away? That will happen pretty often right? You said before that it’s happening very often in a double deck game, but i assume that it’s happening in 6-deck as well?
I will probably have a bunch of questions for you in coming weeks, so be prepared 🙂 🙂
Thank you again, really!
Yes, if you leave every 6-deck shoe at -1, you’ll be walking a lot. I personally never left at that minor a negative count. But if you can do it, it does really help the expected results. In 2-deck games, you can afford to play through a lot more negative counts and still have very good overall results. That is why the majority of my play has been at 2-deck games. They are simply a lot easier to beat.
As for sitting down at a shoe already in progress, there’s no problem with it, although you are less likely to reach a positive situation. It’s like playing a game with poor penetration until the first shuffle. Just treat any discards when you begin as unseen decks, just like the cards still in the shoe. For that reason, it’s simpler and better to just come in immediately after a shuffle instead. But you don’t have to wait if you don’t want.
Hello Ken.
My casino rules are : surrender(im not sure if it’s early or late), 6-deck game, stand on S17(not sure either), 3 splits allowed, double any 2 cards, double after split allowed. Blackjack pay 3:2.
AND: Blackjack with the same symbol of the cards (hearts for example) pays 2:1.
If the box has value of “21” with 7 cards in the box, it pays 5:1.
If there are three sevens with the same symbol in the box, it pays 5:1.
I think those are pretty good rules. Maybe even slight edge is on my side?
Can you tell me what should i change in my basic strategy because of the “AND” part above?
Also, my main question is:
Bet spread is 2$ – 100$ here. Can you tell me what is the minimum bankroll for a 3h play? I read in GameMaster’s school that it should be 50x top bet, but i suppose that’s because the bet spread there was 5$-50$ which is pretty bad. I don’t have 5000$ dollars. I have like 500$ maximum. I want to train for a couple of months, and then go to the casino, and see what can I do. I hope there won’t be that losing streak right away. But I’m fully aware of it.
And if I am able to stay disciplined, and focused, i will probably go in the casino with much bigger bankroll, after some decent time of practice.
But I’m asking you if 200-300-500$ is enough for this first time, with this 2$-100$ betting spread, or I should just wait, and save more money?
Sorry for the long post.
Thank you for everything.
Suited blackjack paying 2:1 adds 0.57% to the game. The base game you describe is around -0.58% if H17, or -0.36% if S17.
Suited 777 paying 5:1 adds only 0.008%, and 7-card 21 is probably less than that.
The overall net is a breakeven basic strategy game for H17, and +0.22% for S17 games. That’s a nice base advantage for the game.
The only strategy change is don’t split your 7s if they are suited. Hit for the possible 5:1.
If you are betting a top bet of $100, even if you are willing to take the risk of losing the bank, you need to have the table stakes to double and split as needed. Long term, I’m more conservative than the GameMaster. I advocate a full bankroll of 100X your top bet instead of his 50x. But for short-term plays, accepting the very high risk of losing your entire stake, I still would not sit down at the table with less than 10 times my expected top bet for the session. And I would never make a single bet that I couldn’t afford to split and double on the two hands.
Sorry Ken, one more question, so you can answer them at once.
You said in previous replies in this topic that someone should stand on a true count 4 and 15 vs dealer’s 10? That’s not what basic strategy says. I mean, basic strategy doesn’t correlate to counting in any way. So I am wondering, what do you actually mean? I didn’t read whole “GameMaster’s school ” yet, so i suppose these are some of the advanced strategies?
Best regards man, and i apologize for being boring.
Basic strategy says hit 15vT. But card counters who know the deck is full of high cards (with a true count of +4 or higher) can utilize that information to know that standing is now better than hitting in that case. Each strategy decision has a tipping point like this (an index number), where the strategy changes if the remaining deck composition is far enough from average. But by all means, focus first on getting basic strategy down cold. When I started, I used card counting for over a year with just basic strategy before I added strategy changes to my game.
I’m in Brazil, where casinos are forbidden. So, I need to play in online casinos, using the live blackjack mode. The rules of the casino are: 8-deck game, cut off in the 50% of the shoe, stand on S17, double any 2 cards, double after split allowed, except for the double Aces (only one addition card). Blackjack pays 3:2.
My question is: With these conditions, is it possible to beat the dealer?
An 8-deck 50% game is very tough, but it could be beaten with a large enough spread if you are also willing to leave in any negative count. It’s going to be a frustrating grind, and because the edge will be so small, you could play perfectly for many hundreds of hours and still be behind due to bad luck. I wouldn’t waste time on this game.
Please reply to my Email address a list of Vegas casinos that still have 3:2 tables and which casinos you recommend as best. Thanks.
Hey Ken,
I just started counting cards and i found 2 casinos with good rules but i don’t know which is better. In both casinos the dealer stands on S17, double on any 2 pairs is allowed, resplitting is allowed and after splitting aces you get one card and black jack pays 3:2. But the first one is an 8-deck with 85% penetration while the other is 4-deck with 65-75% penetration. Which one should i prefer?
The off-the-top difference between 4 decks and 8 decks is only around 0.1%.
Because the penetration is so much better on your 8-deck game, I would choose the 8-deck game for card counting.
(Just to be clear: Basic strategy players would be better off in the 4-deck game, since penetration doesn’t matter to them.)
Hey Ken, I have a question.
In your basic stategy matrix you write to split the 8,8s against a T or A, but in a matrix for a UK casino would just hit. What is the difference between them?
In the UK, the dealer does not deal a hole card, and any doubles or splits are vulnerable to a possible dealer blackjack. In the US, the dealer checks for blackjack immediately before play begins, so you can’t double or split if they have a blackjack. This difference makes it unwise to double or split in the UK when the dealer has a ten or an Ace showing. One exception: In the UK, still split Aces against a dealer ten.
To get the appropriate strategy for these games, you can use the Strategy Engine and choose “No Peek”.
Hello Ken
I have a question about which count is more preferred. I play in 2 casinos one of which is 4deck with 75% penetration and the other one is 6deck with 85% penetration. Obviously the best casino to choose is the second one but my question is that i use Hi-Lo count, but some say that the Knock-out count is more preferred for shoe games even if it is an unbalanced count, so which of these 2 counts is the best for these 2 casinos??
I find Hi-Lo profitable and easy but i find KO count easy as well, so does the KO count have more success than the Hi-Lo count for the casinos that i attend to???
Will i have more success by using KO count rather than Hi-Lo count in those casinos??
Please Help 🙂
In 6 and 8 deck games, Hi-Lo and KO perform almost identically. Switching to the easier KO count will not cost you anything.
Hey Ken i am counting card for almost a year and i always prefer to play alone with the dealer. Lets assume that the true count is +4 and i would bet 40 pounds. Is it better to open 2 or 3 boxes instead of playing in one box? Will i reduce the standard deviation? And will i have more or less profit in the long run?
I wouldn’t worry. If you are flat-betting with nothing else going on, you’ve just been lucky. As a flat-bettor, you can win a lot before they get worried. In bigger places, $50K cumulative win might be a problem. But if they don’t see anything suspicious in your play, think six figures. In small places that really sweat the money, it can be tough to win $10K without issues, even for players that appear to just be lucky. For this question, your mileage may vary.