Man, this "counting" stuff is hard.

After a month or so of sporadic study and drill, I hit the casino with great anticipation of my awesome KO-coundint powers.

Found a $5 dollar table with a nice, slow dealer. Backcounted (shamelessly) through 1.9 6-deck shoes until the count finally got positive. Played one or two hands before the shoe was empty. Decided to stay in for the next shoe, and was able to more or less muddle through the count, with some difficulty.

Then a replacement dealer came in, and, well, it was pretty horrible. I didn't have a shot at keeping up. Even his announcing of everybody's hand was distracting me (ALL THOSE NUMBERS!!). Still won a little bit of money thanks to basic strategy and dumb luck.

I'm not sure if I have a point here.

For those who can actually pull this off, how long did the theory-into-practice stage take you?

Hey Easy,

I too had some difficulty during my first go around. I felt like I was up for the challenge and found some major holes and areas of improvement. I found that I was able to do well with 1 or 2 other people at a table, during early morning hours when the casino was "quiet". I also seemed to keep up because I was playing 2D. With a full table, a lot of taking and cards turning quickly...I was toast. I practiced a lot dealing cards to myself and I learned this isn't what builds speed or prepared me for the casino. It did prove to myself that, overtime, counting would give me an advantage.

So, for what it is worth I am focusing on building speed and accuracy by counting down a deck of cards and really trying to get to 25 seconds. There was a post by SageFrog a few days back that gave some good practice methods... I've adopted a couple of them!

EasyRhino said:

After a month or so of sporadic study and drill, I hit the casino with great anticipation of my awesome KO-coundint powers.

Found a $5 dollar table with a nice, slow dealer. Backcounted (shamelessly) through 1.9 6-deck shoes until the count finally got positive. Played one or two hands before the shoe was empty. Decided to stay in for the next shoe, and was able to more or less muddle through the count, with some difficulty.

Then a replacement dealer came in, and, well, it was pretty horrible. I didn't have a shot at keeping up. Even his announcing of everybody's hand was distracting me (ALL THOSE NUMBERS!!). Still won a little bit of money thanks to basic strategy and dumb luck.

I'm not sure if I have a point here.

For those who can actually pull this off, how long did the theory-into-practice stage take you?

Click to expand...

It will get much easier with practice, but it should be done before you go back to the casino. If you lose the count, you lose your edge!

EasyRhino said:

For those who can actually pull this off, how long did the theory-into-practice stage take you?

Click to expand...

An hour. Counting High-Low, from first sitting down at the table counting, to being able to talk to the waitress and other players without losing the count. But I'm a freak.

EasyRhino said:

After a month or so of sporadic study and drill, I hit the casino with great anticipation of my awesome KO-coundint powers.

Found a $5 dollar table with a nice, slow dealer. Backcounted (shamelessly) through 1.9 6-deck shoes until the count finally got positive. Played one or two hands before the shoe was empty. Decided to stay in for the next shoe, and was able to more or less muddle through the count, with some difficulty.

Then a replacement dealer came in, and, well, it was pretty horrible. I didn't have a shot at keeping up. Even his announcing of everybody's hand was distracting me (ALL THOSE NUMBERS!!). Still won a little bit of money thanks to basic strategy and dumb luck.

Click to expand...

really great story Easy. i enjoyed it immensley. actually it sounds as if you did pretty good your first time in the barrel. heck you'll get it man, your almost there.
it takes time for many of us. just don't over bet. settle down a bit. you can quit play any time you want if things get out of control. also remmember it's you that decides when to play. don't let the casino envirenment make you feel as if you must play. again, you decide when to play.
sounds as if just a bit more practice counting and you'll be on your way. be advised there shall be many pitfalls to come once you master keeping the running count. you'll figure it all out as you go along.

EasyRhino said:

For those who can actually pull this off, how long did the theory-into-practice stage take you?

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heck man it took me almost six months. problem i had was i kept trying to re-invent the wheel and never really practiced properly at first to gain the counting proficiency i needed. then i tryed to half-ass it for a while sort of guestimating the count. finally i buckled down and seriously determined to practice until i could finally keep the running count. here is a suggestion.
if you are like me one of your biggest problems is a reluctance of mind to keep the count in your mind. you've got to train your self to center your attention on that count. i was finally able to do that by repeating the count instead of relying on my memory. (to much dope in the 60's for my memory). so what i do is every time the count changes i say it in my mind. if there is a span of time that cards aren't being dealt then i'm sitting there saying the current count over and over in my mind. this become habitual with practice. try practicing as outlined below:
take one deck (pull out three cards, they will be used to verify your count was correct when you get to the end of the deck)
1. flip one card over at a time and say to yourself what the current rc is through one full deck.
2. flip two cards over at a time and say to yourself what the current rc is through one full deck.
3. fan the cards out on a table and count the rc as you visually scan them saying the current rc as you scan the various cards. (you'll find often two adjacent cards cancell one another)
through these three steps of practice take your time and get it right. more and more practice will build speed naturally. if you ever get one step wrong then do that step over until you get it right twice.

best regards,
mr fr0g

EasyRhino said:

After a month or so of sporadic study and drill, I hit the casino with great anticipation of my awesome KO-coundint powers.

.... I didn't have a shot at keeping up. Even his announcing of everybody's hand was distracting me (ALL THOSE NUMBERS!!). ......

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hey Easy, besides trying the practice regimen i outlined in the post above:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=16333&postcount=5

you could try another exercise that may help.
practice counting as outlined below:

for negative numbers count by twos from -1 repeat to yourself in your mind as follows:
m1,m3,m5,m7,m9,m11,m13,m15,m17,m19,m21,m19,m17,m15,m13,m11,m9,m7,
m5,m3,m1

then do it for positive number by twos from 1
1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,19,17,15,13,11,9,7,5,3,1

then for minus numbers count by twos from 0 repeat to yourself in your mind as follows:
0, m2,m4,m6,m8,m10,m12,m14,m16,m18,m20,m18,m16,m14,m12,m10,m8,m6
m4,m2,0

and for positve numbers count by twos from 0
0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,18,16,14,12,10,8,6,4,2,0

also practice counting by ones for negative and positive numbers
m1,m2,m3,m4,m5,m6,m7,m8,m9,m10,m11,m12,m13,m14,m15,m16,
m17,m18,m19,m20,m21,m20,m19,m18,m17,m16,m15,m14,m13,m12,
m11,m10,m9,m8,m7,m6,m5,m4,m3,m2,m1,0
&
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,20,19,18,17,
16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1

do this a couple of times a day or so. you will be suprise how it will help
once you hit the casino. it'll get you used to counting as you do it in the casino.

best regards,
mr fr0g

Well, I hit the casino again, haven't had time for much practice because of my stupid day job.

Did I mention I'm in Missouri right now? And as far as I can tell, they can't throw you out for counting, which is awesome.

I blatantly hovered outside a 6d game through 2.8 shoes. Took like 30 minutes. Since I was just there on a short trip I was starting to get antsy. Once I wonged in I stayed in.

The two dealers were both fairly slow, and I was at a low-dollar table with some chatty newbies, so it was a slow game. I was able to basically maintain the count (a couple points I had to backtrack from memory, so I may have been off a bit). Very dealer-dependent on the ability to pull this off.

I was able to block out the dealer's recitation of the counts pretty while while I was trying to keep my own. One thing I was proud of was I was able to switch from counting one card at a time to counting pairs to just sort of randomly scanning the table. At one part I wandered back to the table after the first hand after shuffling (I was looking for my friend) and was able to count up the results of the first hand after it ended and before it was cleaned up.

The bad part was that the switching took me a while mentally, and I was usually forced into doing it by my mind just randomly blanking out (too much LSD as a baby?)

Anyway, the count did get positive finally, and I bet a $5-$25 spread with a ramp of 2ish. And I won more of the bigger bets than I lost, so that was a pretty sweet experience.

I also had a stretch when I was flat betting where I didn't lose a hand for like half the shoe. Again, i'd rather be lucky than good any day.

Frog, I like your training idea, as I did have some problem when jumping in larger increments while in negative territory. Hell, I only learned the trick of using "em" instead of "minus" last week. (I flipped my KO count from a negative IRC to positive IRC counting down just to avoid this)

Remember the very first time you rode a bike,or got behind the wheel of a car?Weren't you sure you couldn't do it,and you were terrified? I know I was.Now its second nature.Same will happen with the cards.Unless you give up.

EasyRhino, out of curiosity, do you mind telling me which Missouri casino you visited? I'm "up" that way quite a bit if you are speaking of KC.

Mikeaber said:

EasyRhino, out of curiosity, do you mind telling me which Missouri casino you visited? I'm "up" that way quite a bit if you are speaking of KC.

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Naw, I'm in St Louis, and all of the rules seem the same here at each casino, 6 deck, H17, DAS, no surrender. Harrah's and Ameristar are the bigger casinos, Argosy is okay, President is a dump, and I haven't been to the Casino Queen in East STL.

Don't remember much about KC, except I they had a $3 table at Ameristar there a couple years ago, and I played there in one amazingly lengthy session back when I only knew a little BS.

EasyRhino said:

Naw, I'm in St Louis, and all of the rules seem the same here at each casino, 6 deck, H17, DAS, no surrender. Harrah's and Ameristar are the bigger casinos, Argosy is okay, President is a dump, and I haven't been to the Casino Queen in East STL.

Don't remember much about KC, except I they had a $3 table at Ameristar there a couple years ago, and I played there in one amazingly lengthy session back when I only knew a little BS.

Click to expand...

It (AmeriStar) hasn't changed. They have a multitude of $5 tables, three $3 tables and some $25 tables in the high limit room. Their DD games are $10 and $15 but the rules and pen are not that good unless you go to the high limit room.

Well, Sunday and Monday mornings were interesting.

Got to the casino on Sunday about 8AM, so it wasn't very crowded. Saw a near-full $5 table and a manned, empty, $10 table. I'm all about nickels or lower right now, so$10 is too much of a bet for me, especially if it's heads0up and I can't wong. I asked the dealer about the possibility of playing $5 since no one else was around. She asked the floorlady, who paged the pit boss, who came down, checked out the scene, and approved it. I didn't realize there was so much bureacracy involved. I guess I got the special "low-roller" treatment.

Anyway, in heads-up play with the dealer, I got just demolished in the first half of the shoe. Then two more guys joined the table, and it was still ugly.

My counting was so-so, as expected. I had the occassional pause or flub. However, I had very few opportunities to wong in or out due to crowded tables, and had very few positive counts. It was pretty frustrating. Dropped about $100 over a couple hours. Then I noticed a craps table had just opened and was empty, and I had been kind of interested in that, so I played a few rolls while I was the only person there. Unfortunately, the table minimum and my odds bets were really too large for my desired payroll, so I lost $90 during my "craps lesson". I definitely learned my lesson.

When I went back this morning, I was determined to wong more aggressively. I'd camp outside of the single $5 table, and just refuse to sit down during a negative count. I don't have a defined wong-out strategy, but I left several times halfway through a shoe if the count was still ugly. My actual counting had dropped down a notch though, I think this was mainly due to fatigue (sleep fatigue, not counting fatigue). And when I snagged a soda from the cocktail waitress it totall destroyed my count on one shoe (but I needed the caffeine!). However, I did get fast enough at counting pairs to work out a decent "pattern" for the ways the tables are dealt, and I did sorta okay with a faster relief dealer. I think my blatant wonging may have attracted the attention of the floorperson (the same matronly lady as previous day). She already knew me by name, and for a while during my last stint at the table (I sat through a couple shoes at third base), I think I got a folksy polite midwestern version of "heat", where she was just camped out right by my shoulder for quite a few hands. My eyes were still more or less glued to the table, but I did manage to maintain a semblance of conversation with her and the table, although she may have thought I was on drugs. Was slightly luckier, mainly on the small bets. One highlight is that I was dead-on on my strategy, not even having to consult my little card which I carry around, just in case. walked out with $3 more than when I came in, which included the $20 deduction for a "roulette lesson".

So what I've learned so far.

- Definitely need to continue to work on my counting speed.

- Third base really is easier than first base.

- I have the reverse of camouflage. In fact, one player who seemed to be a regular at the casino asked me if I was counting as I was wonging-in.

- My bankroll can't support buying a great deal of odds on the pass line in craps. A small limit table and 1x odds might be fun for a brief diversion though.

EasyRhino said:

I don't have a defined wong-out strategy, but I left several times halfway through a shoe if the count was still ugly.

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hey Easy try bailing out at two decks dealt out if the true count is zero or less.
i'm assumming your playing six decks. sometimes you might want to bail out if the count is only plus one. you'll get the feel for it. try just staying sitting at the table and just waving the dealer off say something like gonna take a break for a minute.

best regards,
mr fr0g

Note to self: I love wonging.

Casino (different, bigger one) was a little crowded tonight, so I notice a $10 table with only two people at it. Since $10 is above my min bet, I figured it would be okay to play, as long as I wonged-in when I'd be betting bigger anyway. After a shoe or so, I came in, and I got pretty lucky, and the (KO) count got stratospheric, at least by my standards. When the shoe got pretty low, I just stopped counting entirely, because whatever the question was going to be over the next few hands, the answer was "yes".** I even got the opportunity to start buying insurance for the first time (unfortunately, it paid off 2 out of 3 times). But it was a hot shoe for the table and me, I walked away up 37 units.

Then i was just waiting for a friend to finish his slot and pull me away, so I hung out at a $5 table and just started playing each hand with a new shoe. I thought "how much damage can a 7 person $5 table do". It was pretty miserable. The count wasn't crappy, but stayed out of bigger betting range. The dealer was catching a lot of (barely good natured) flak from all the players. Finally, I just leaned back in my stool and said "I can't take it", and watched quite a few hands blow by. The count briefly turned positive, I bet 3 units, won the hand, and then sat out the rest of the shoe again, net down 10 units. Then I grabbed my friend by the collar and drug him the hell out of there before I lost all my winnings.

Plus, since it was pretty busy, and there was nearly a brawl at an adjacent table when a lady was going to stay with A,5 vs. a 6. I think the floorlady was just glad that the only thing going on at our table was complaining.

So, again, when I'm in a town where every card game has a 6 deck shoe, wonging=victory.

** I realize that intentionally stopping counting while still playing is some sort of sin, and I won't do it again.

Tonight, I had two terrifying (by my standards) bets out on the table. One was 20 units (big bet, split, split, double). The other was 15 (split, double). Dealer's hand was weak and won both.

Also, on one hand, I split tens vs. a 6. KO doesn't even have an index for that, but the count was very high (+22) at the end of the shoe, and I just had to do it once to get it out of my system. The ploppies ($5 table, mind you) were aghast, and the net result for me was a push. But it was still great fun.

However, after probably 12-15 hours in the casino over the past week (and a couple hours of kitchen table practice), my counting skills have improved appreciably. I am far from lighting fast, and I need to focus awfully close on the game at hand, but at least I can maintain the count fairly reliably across an entire shoe.

EasyRhino said:

Also, on one hand, I split tens vs. a 6. KO doesn't even have an index for that,

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There is an index for any play. I believe the KO index for splitting tens vs a 5 and 6 is +4(pivot point or higher).

sagefr0g said:

hey Easy try bailing out at two decks dealt out if the true count is zero or less.
i'm assumming your playing six decks. sometimes you might want to bail out if the count is only plus one. you'll get the feel for it. try just staying sitting at the table and just waving the dealer off say something like gonna take a break for a minute.

best regards,
mr fr0g

Click to expand...

oops sorry Easy i see your using KO. i'm not sure what your count would be for the wong out on KO but you want to make the decision at two decks dealt out.

best regards,
mr fr0g

ScottH said:

There is an index for any play. I believe the KO index for splitting tens vs a 5 and 6 is +4(pivot point or higher).

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Oh, I didn't see ANY mention of splitting-related indices anywhere in the book. However, in this thread there are some reasonable-sounding approximations.

So it's nice to see that I played that one hand correctly anyway. Who knows, maybe my splitting of nines vs. a 7 was correct too. I had nightmares about that one after the fact (despite the fact that it paid off)

EasyRhino said:

Oh, I didn't see ANY mention of splitting-related indices anywhere in the book. However, in this thread there are some reasonable-sounding approximations.

So it's nice to see that I played that one hand correctly anyway. Who knows, maybe my splitting of nines vs. a 7 was correct too. I had nightmares about that one after the fact (despite the fact that it paid off)

Click to expand...

You're right that splitting tens is not listed in the book. But it is a significant play as far as EV is concerned, but they didn't list it because it can be a dangerous play as far as cover. My personal preference is to split them at the correct index . It not only makes you more money, but it's a great way to clear the table fast!

Well, here's the basic progression of my blackjack career.

3 years ago: Found out there was going to be an outing to one of the Colorado casinos as part of a friend's bachelor party. Spent an hour or two cramming the basicest of basic strategy (from this site!)

2 years ago: Went to vegas with family. Didn't know how to play any of the table games, had even forgotten BS. Felt like a chump.

1 year ago: Found myself near riverboat casinos on a business trip. Studied up on BS again, and then, and played a few times over the course of the year.

Couple months: After finding myself really close to a bunch of riverboat casinos again, I embarked on a more rapid progression. First business trip got the BS locked down. Second trip was still BS, while counting cards on the kitchen table. And the third (longer) trip, was what I started recounting above... I'm pretty confident I can maintain a basic count and a basic betting strategy in ploppy-friendly environments (multiple players, non-fast dealers).

That's kind of cool. If I can hold onto the, then that means I can go on the occasional trip to Vegas or wherever and have the house advantage reversed.

I'm not sure if I want to embark on the Next Step of becoming a hardcore (but still recreational) player. The mental requirement seems fairly taxing. The bankroll requirements are pretty impressive. And to be honest, I don't think I like risk that much. Hmmm....