100 unit buy in!

[LC Larry]

You'd play an AC game with a 1-8 spread?!
That's suicide with almost any BR.

I think you got my drift then.

 

[LC Larry]

I get the point you are trying to make, but this seems a bit extreme. You don't need 25k to play a $80 max bet.

Anyone familiar with me probably already knows my AC experience. I played 5 1/2 years at low limit before I wore out my welcome. I started with $4300 and played an even smaller spread and stakes than mentioned in this thread, which is why it took me several years to begin to grow my bankroll.

I don't want to rehash those 51/2 years but there are some take-aways related to this discussion. I did not wear out my welcome until I moved up in stakes, spreading green to light black. It has been a decade, so thing may have changed but back then countermeasures were not going to be taken against a player spreading red, like $10-$80 or less. Well maybe if you sat at one table for hours and hours almost forcing action to be taken, but otherwise, not.

For one thing, back then AC was pretty crowded. I don't know how it is today. So back then at $5 and $10 tables there were always 4, 5, 6 players. Since AC can't ban players, if they were to cut the deck (penetration), they are doing 2 things to hurt their bottom line. 1.) reduced penetration means more down time, and less rounds played against those other 4-5 "losing" players. 2.) this same action may piss off those same other 4-5 "losing" players.

So taking any action might just be a cut off your nose to spite your face situation and they most likely just tolerated small level counting (like I was doing at the time), as long as the player wasn't too aggressive or camped out for hours (which I didn't).

I basically started the same only we started with 6D, S17. Those naturally became 8D, H17. I used the same Wong out of negative counts strategy as well. I've gone so far as leave after the very first hand.

My point was, I'd like to have plenty of back up for 8D games.

 

[21forme]

Actually not for me. H17 took over especially at lower limits just about the time I started, with the exception being Borgata. They remained at S17 for all of my time in AC, which is why that became my home base, and I overplayed which lead to wearing out my welcome.

Maybe your time in AC was later than I thought.

I'm taking it that he is not American. Foreigners tend to write it backwards all the time.

Don

Good thought, but why would a foreigner be playing AC? Based on his rants, he seems American.

 

[Stevel96a1]

not many white people in ac casinos and if they are mostly security or dealer or working there not donating

 

[Stevel96a1]

i guess i didnt make it clear enuff, the riveboat series black lets you start off any amoumt, i picked 1,000, i ran that to 1400ish and it dropped to -54 because i didn't have enough to double down without enter a negative number, it was so cute tho before i ran that sim i used casino verite and guess what i only lost 20$ on 1 betting spread but won 700ish dude i called that out come before it happened

i already know whats going to happen the only real player on here is ZK and his results fighting the casinos corresponds with riverboat series blackjack CV must have bugs in there shuffles where permits player to enter a win streak,

i dont know how anyone can make money off this game esp if the dealer says we call/catch counter within their first 15min of play time ouch to the 5th power

all the cover plays in the world cant prevent them catching you reason why i went with a small spread or have fun having them shuffle up 40% in the shoe

 

[KewlJ]

Maybe your time in AC was later than I thought.

About what time do you think H17 began in AC?

I started my BJ career in March 2004. (time flies when you are having fun ) It is possible there were S17 games when I started, but if so the switch over occurred shortly after. Except of course Borgata. All I can say for sure is that for almost all of my career, I have played against H17, so it never bothered me the way it did some of the older players that were used to better conditions. I like to think I grew up with H17, 8 deckers and if you can learn to win with those....

 

[Stevel96a1]

About what time do you think H17 began in AC?

I started my BJ career in March 2004. (time flies when you are having fun ) It is possible there were S17 games when I started, but if so the switch over occurred shortly after. Except of course Borgata. All I can say for sure is that for almost all of my career, I have played against H17, so it never bothered me the way it did some of the older players that were used to better conditions. I like to think I grew up with H17, 8 deckers and if you can learn to win with those....

I like to think I grew up with H17, 8 deckers and if you can learn to win with those....

ZK has access to late surrender and s17 and he may even have access to double deckers *Drool*
im tampering with simulations on the kitchen table with what you fought Kool jay and im shaking my head no no not doing that!!
surely i would need 5 grand to make a measly 8-12 bucks an hr god forbid if i dont double that and go broke with a meager 1-10 spread

you must be the luckiest man in the world Kooljay you went thru the guantlet, the ringer, the machine and came out alive with double a bankroll and never looked back and continue to clone the clone of the 2nd bankroll yes that is more luck than skill imo, i walked up to a blackjack table tonight saw one hand and dealer showed a queen and his hole was you guessed it another face card everyone at the table lost yea yea i know 1 hand at a random walkup doesnt say much but happens alot actually

 

[KewlJ]

you must be the luckiest man in the world Kooljay you went thru the guantlet, the ringer, the machine and came out alive with double a bankroll and never looked back and continue to clone the clone of the 2nd bankroll yes that is more luck than skill imo,

Lucky? Sure I was lucky that I didn't bust out somewhere along the line in my first few years. But on the other hand, I believe the very mediocre games and small bets spreads actually helped reduce variance. Short term variance or swings occurs when you hit a period that you win or lose more of you max bets than expected. My max bet was small in comparison to my minimum bet and the mediocre 75% penetration cut down on those max bet opportunities, so I didn't have a run of losing many in a row. The math guys may challenge this belief, but I truly believe this contributed to that good fortune.

But I also worked damn hard at it. My first couple years, I was only able to get in 30ish hours a week, because there were only $5 tables available in the morning hours at 3 different casinos, Taj, Bally's wild west and the Hilton/Bally's grand property that has changed hands and names so many times. Each of the places had $5 minimum games on weekday mornings until about 11am when the bus loads of people began arriving. Bally's Wild west would lower tables in the evening for a couple hours after the bus people had left. During the afternoons it was a fight for the one $5 table that Borgata always had. And weekends, no chance of anything.

So I got in 30 hours a week or so. I didn't have Norm's software at the time, didn't even know about it, but I would guess my win rate was probably about $6-7 dollars an hour. I took $700-$800 a month to pay my half of rent, travel expenses and a little bit of food expense. That's what I lived off of for 2+ years. I made far less than the $11 and hour job I left to pursue card counting. When someone pursues card counting it really isn't about the money. It is a passion. If you don't have that passion, you probably should not pursue card counting. If it is just about money, almost anything else will pay better.

Steve96a1, you sound like one of these guys that wants to make $50/hr off a $5k bankroll. Card counting doesn't work that way. Some other plays might, but you spend more time scouting than playing. And I am glad card counting doesn't work that way, for if it did, there would be a zillion card counters and no casino could offer a beatable game. Card counting is a grind. And it takes money to make money, as I learned my first few years.

 

[KewlJ]

Lucky? Sure I was lucky that I didn't bust out somewhere along the line in my first few years. But on the other hand, I believe the very mediocre games and small bets spreads actually helped reduce variance. Short term variance or swings occurs when you hit a period that you win or lose more of you max bets than expected. My max bet was small in comparison to my minimum bet and the mediocre 75% penetration cut down on those max bet opportunities, so I didn't have a run of losing many in a row. The math guys may challenge this belief, but I truly believe this contributed to that good fortune.

And this actually worked both ways. While I believe these mediocre games providing fewer max bet situation contributed to me not busting out, it also prevented me from hitting a run of really good variance. And that is precisely why I went along for 2+ years the way I did, able to pay my bills and stay afloat, but not able to grow my bankroll at all. Finally in my 3rd year, I did hit some good variance, better than expected winnings for a few months that finally allowed me to bet a little more and the cycle of growing my bankroll began.

 

[21forme]

About what time do you think H17 began in AC?

Maybe 2008 or 2009. Back in the late 2000s, I was pretty adamant about avoiding H17 games (unless there were other factors that trumped (no pun intended) that rule), and I don't recall avoiding any place in particular in AC. I hardly ever played Trop (except for their 4D) or Trump Marina, but I don't remember why.

OTOH, maybe my recollection is off because I was playing a lot of T3's game in the late 2000s because big spreads well so well-tolerated at that time.

Some guys keep their old CBJNs. If any of you are reading this, would you mind looking back at AC games to see when H17 started?

 

[KewlJ]

Maybe 2008 or 2009. Back in the late 2000s, I was pretty adamant about avoiding H17 games (unless there were other factors that trumped (no pun intended) that rule), and I don't recall avoiding any place in particular in AC. I hardly ever played Trop (except for their 4D) or Trump Marina, but I don't remember why.

OTOH, maybe my recollection is off because I was playing a lot of T3's game in the late 2000s because big spreads well so well-tolerated at that time.

Some guys keep their old CBJNs. If any of you are reading this, would you mind looking back at AC games to see when H17 started?

2008 or 2009 isn't right. I was done playing AC in 2009. Bought my first condo in Vegas in November 2009. Traveled back and forth between Vegas and Philly in 2010, but was playing Pa games, not AC when I was on the east coast.

I am certain that most of the 5 1/2 years I played AC, which was 2004 to late 2009, were H17, with the exception of Borgata. But maybe the difference is that I am talking strictly the low limit $5 and $10 dollar tables. I seem to recall that maybe some of the casinos had $25 and up tables still at S17, because I remember wishing I had the funds to play them. But by the time I did start playing $25 tables, probably in 2008, even they were H17, so I just missed out all around.

 

[21forme]

I played mostly $25 min tables and some HL rooms (Showboat, Harrahs Marina, Ballys, Resorts). so maybe I'm forgetting about the lower limit tables that I simply avoided due to rules and crowds. I didn't record rules in my records, so have no way of knowing for sure. However, I know in the 2000s I pretty much avoided H17 games as there were still plenty of S17 games around. Early this decade is when I finally capitulated and started playing H17. I pretty sure Foxwoods was H17 in the 2000s, but their outstanding pen at that time made up for it.

 

[Stevel96a1]

if what you say is true you beated most people in philly in 2004 min wage retail jobs were 5.50 an hr i think and here you got a job making 8hr an hr + comps and you were able to make it grow which was the beauty of card counting and gambling, 50$ an hour at the tables would be ideal for anyone
id take 10% of that and watch it grow and be more agreessive down the months with the spread,

can i lose 10 max bets? certainly, can i lose 20 max bets? ofcourse can i lose 50 makes bets? over time YES it would be hard but still possible
i really dont have 5grand right now to piss away over 5 week period, are there even 5$tables left in ac? or are they 6:5 crapjack?
id love to punch weekend hours at sands pa or ac and make that 8-12$ an hr for 5months in problems i can also lose 5grand
so i think luck over powers everything not to mention the house can stop my action via shuffling up or in sands stop doing that

 

[stopgambling]

i started at $4000 and then messed up playing a very high ROR which brought me up to $18k . i then come crashing down to $1100 . i start all over and vow to take revenge . You don't need to wonder what happened if i am still here. you don't need to talk down KJ , i started 5 years after him probably. i thought if he can do it i should too. I knew he worked/grinded hard , Cause i had to go thru similar trenches. my advice is try to find a GOOD/GREAT game and don't worry about Back Off. You can not afford to worry if you are ONLY counting .

 

[KewlJ]

Thanks for the kind words stopgambling. Unfortunately I am growing quite used to members talking down to me. lol

What you are describing with your start, $4000 BR, playing a high RoR and running it to 18k, is basically the "Hail Mary approach". But the problem was once you had the good fortune to run it to 18k, you are supposed to then re-adjust and begin playing to a more reasonable RoR. That's the part you screwed up on, that made your journey harder. Live and learn. Most of us had to figure these things out along the way.

If I had my start to do over again, that is exactly the approach I would have taken. Instead of grinding my small $4300 BR for basically 3 years, waiting for some positive variance that would allow me to finally move up a bit in stakes, I would of "hail Mary-ed" playing bigger stakes to a high RoR and if I busted out, found a job and rebuilt another "hail Mary BR" until I succeeded. I think that would have been better than wasting 3 years, while wearing out my face at such small stakes. Hindsight is a beautiful thing.

 

[Stevel96a1]

so is it better to go in with 10max bets with a hail marry bankroll and start cloning your bankroll to infinity or is it better to go in with 50 max bets make crap money and long time to double it?

if im gonna lose i should go out blasting right? imo 1-8 spread or 1-18 spread will have the same result at the end of the night go home winner or go home loser, my manual sim would have showed me hand #100 maybe if that i would never reached hand number 500# if i did a 1-18 spread but did not make any difference luck not with me for those 500 turns

stopgambling your post is nothing new, i read "Stories" on other site wizard of odds how card counters pop in with 5 max bets and won 35 grand numerous posts and ofcourse they lost it all or claim to, the odds of that are equal to lotto winners better off buyin up lotto tickets with that luck next to you then bj game

 

[KewlJ]

You are mischaracterizing the "Hail Mary bankroll". 10 max bets is not Hail Mary. It is a guarantee of disaster. I don't know what the "official" numbers are for a hail Mary BR. Maybe 30 max bets? Maybe 40? The object is that you have a reasonable chance to hit some positive variance. That is weighed against the probability that you will bust out (high RoR). AND you have to be prepared for that bust out scenario, meaning prepared to build another Hail Mary BR and try again, until you succeed.

The second very important part is that when you do hit some positive variance and hit some sort of target, you then have to re-size down and begin playing with a reasonable RoR. Not doing so, which seems to have been stopgambling's mistake, almost guarantees that you will end up right back where you started, every time.

I read Wizard's forum, even though I am no longer allowed to participate. I have read some of those "stories" as well. Most are nonsense. Most fly in the face of mathematical probabilities and some even mathematical possibilities. I have a saying that "it isn't that hard to figure out who knows what they are talking about and who is just talking" on these forums. It has to do with credibility.

So 2 members could make the same claim that they started with 5 max bets and ran it to 35k, (highly unlikely) and I might believe one based on his credibility, history and knowledge, why disbelieve the other. It is your job to figure out who is credibile (knows what they are talking about) and who isn't (is just talking). It really isn't that hard.

And BTW, this applied to published authors as well. Suppose Don Schlesinger were to describe some unlikely occurrence were he ran a small amount into a large winning playing a high RoR and John Patrick were to describe an almost identical occurrence? One has a great deal of credibility and has always demonstrated he knows exactly what he is talking about while the other....well not so much. I'll leave it to you to figure out which is which. (and which one you would find credible)

 

[LC Larry]

Speaking of hail Mary, I wonder if there's any truth to the story about the guy who ran one of his social security checks up into millions before losing most of it back? I may not have that completely correct, but it was something similar. It was parodied on the pilot episode of "Las Vegas" with the story being the the guy with the bunny slippers.

 

[KewlJ]

Speaking of hail Mary, I wonder if there's any truth to the story about the guy who ran one of his social security checks up into millions before losing most of it back? I may not have that completely correct, but it was something similar. It was parodied on the pilot episode of "Las Vegas" with the story being the the guy with the bunny slippers.

I remember that episode of Las Vegas (one of very few TV shows that I really loved). It inspired me to look up info the storyline. I am guessing the premise of the story is true, but as folk lure tends to do, has grown a great deal over time. Something along the lines of the gentleman ran his SS into 10, 20 thousand, was comped room and food until he lost it all back, seems much more believable to me. And it grew from there.

 

[LC Larry]

The other part of the blackjack story in that episode was the cheater using the hidden camera and the valet driver as his accomplice. I remember seeing that original story on one of those Travel Channel documentaries. One of the security people said he thought the guy was strapped with a bomb and tossed him into water.