AP move or just cheating?

[aslan]

Macho: Darkside?! No way is this the darkside. is it in the DMZ between the dark and grey area? I believe after all the responses on here, I've made that conclusion. will I be walking along the DMZ, poking at it, taunting it, stepping in, stepping out? well........

Shad: I expect once per shift. twice and I'm sure I'd be kicked out for being belligerent. assuming that most places change shoe cards once per shift, then that's all I need. This is a steering play, not a sequencing or ST play.

Aslan: is this a joke too or not?

AM: I'm with you. Morals?!?! the entire casino business model is based upon duping the sucker with a so called "fair" game. hell, why is 3 card monty illegal, yet casino games aren't? they both dupe you. better yet, why does cheating in a poker room get you 86ed, but cheating in a casino gets you a felony?

I've made the conclusion that this move is absolutely, and most definitely is........in the gray area. something that could land you in detention temporarily, but with a decent lawyer could get you off and even sue for wrongful imprisonment. It was the casino's choice not to change out the whole shoe. The info of the new Ace in the shoe is available to everyone at the table.(seems to be a legal standard for determining cheating everywhere)

I put this into the Tommy Hyland AC warp play category. he found a fault in casino procedure. they should've changed cards earlier to prevent him from winning an exorbitant sum. anyway, do it at your own risk. YMMV.

Actually, not. There was a time I enjoyed cheating cheaters, hustling hustlers. But no longer. I don't need the money, but more that that, I don't want to become what I detest in them. They have it coming, but I'll leave that to the Lord, or to karma, or to however you might see the triumph of justice. Better that every ploppy should come to his senses and just quit playing at casinos. But, of course, that will never happen. The ploppy himself must share the guilt. Like one dealer put it one night in AC, "This is what you people want. We're just giving you what you want!" While not entirely true, there is some truth in it. No one forces these idiots to blow there cash. Over-inflated egos; anger at fate, God, or their miserable lives; illusions of grandeur; whatever, it takes two to tango. The saddest cases are those who actually believe they have a decent chance to win. But I don't fancy myself an avenging angel, Robin Hood, or thwarter of evil plots. I'm just a recreational player who detests the casinos and likes the challenge of beating them on the up and up at their own game. Don't get me wrong, I do understand where you and others are coming from. But this is where life has brought me, and I'm happy doing what I'm doing.

 

[Richard Munchkin]

Words matter. The word "cheat" has a legal definition. That is why people that say, "hole carding is cheating" are just flat out wrong. What they mean is they find hole carding unethical or immoral.

I am not a lawyer, but I believe that a player who intentionally spills a drink to then take advantage of the change in cards might be arrested for cheating. The same player who just sat down at a table where a drunk spilled a drink, and took advantage in the very same way would not be guilty of cheating.

If you reach into a shoe, remove the cut card and reinsert it with a 1/2 deck cut, you are cheating. If you scout around the casino and find a dealer who gives a 1/2 deck cut you are not.

 

[QFIT]

Words matter. The word "cheat" has a legal definition. That is why people that say, "hole carding is cheating" are just flat out wrong. What they mean is they find hole carding unethical or immoral.

I am not a lawyer, but I believe that a player who intentionally spills a drink to then take advantage of the change in cards might be arrested for cheating. The same player who just sat down at a table where a drunk spilled a drink, and took advantage in the very same way would not be guilty of cheating.

If you reach into a shoe, remove the cut card and reinsert it with a 1/2 deck cut, you are cheating. If you scout around the casino and find a dealer who gives a 1/2 deck cut you are not.

Yep, cheating has a legal def. In Nevada:

NRS 465.085 Unlawful manufacture, sale, distribution, marking, altering or modification of equipment and devices associated with gaming; unlawful instruction.
1. It is unlawful to manufacture, sell or distribute any cards, chips, dice, game or device which is intended to be used to violate any provision of this chapter.
2. It is unlawful to mark, alter or otherwise modify any associated equipment or gaming device, as defined in chapter 463 of NRS, in a manner that:
(a) Affects the result of a wager by determining win or loss; or
(b) Alters the normal criteria of random selection, which affects the operation of a game or which determines the outcome of a game.
3. It is unlawful for any person to instruct another in cheating or in the use of any device for that purpose, with the knowledge or intent that the information or use so conveyed may be employed to violate any provision of this chapter.
(Added to NRS by 1967, 1283; A 1975, 697; 1977, 386; 1979, 1478; 1981, 1294; 1989, 972)

Now, that does not say that it is cheating if you have nothing to do with the circumstance.

 

[Jack_Black]

I am not a lawyer, but I believe that a player who intentionally spills a drink

I know what the law says. but It would be pretty tough to prove that it was intentional spilling. well, it wouldn't be tough to prove if you are a known AP, but I am not.

 

[QFIT]

I know what the law says. but It would be pretty tough to prove that it was intentional spilling. well, it wouldn't be tough to prove if you are a known AP, but I am not.

I suppose you could also murder someone and say your gun misfired while you were cleaning it. What's your point?

 

[Jack_Black]

Like one dealer put it one night in AC, "This is what you people want. We're just giving you what you want!" While not entirely true, there is some truth in it. No one forces these idiots to blow there cash. The saddest cases are those who actually believe they have a decent chance to win.

"no one forces these idiots to blow their cash" is an excuse I hear from dealers all the time. It is not a sad case when idiots think they can win. the majority of casino patrons actually believe they can win. I know I did when I first turned 21 in vegas. thus, the entire casino industry is one large 3 card monty hustle, that has been approved by law. the industry is no different from predatory lending, ARM loans, and derivatives trading. A big hustle on a global scale.

 

[Jack_Black]

I suppose you could also murder someone and say your gun misfired while you were cleaning it. What's your point?

my point is.....in either case, it needs to be proved.

 

[aslan]

Fun song, but you're dating yourself.

This is clear cheating as you are purposely causing a card to be marked. The new card, not the old card.

I absolutely agree when you spill or cause the drink to be spilled. Not so if you simply spot someone else doing it accidentally, no confederate of yours, and you take advantage of it. Do you agree?

 

[Machinist]

Plenty of times I have seen either the dealer or a ploppy accidentally bend a card, not just a small bend, I mean really bend. Now some stores, dealers could care less, and others will call the PB and fix or replace the card.
Anybody that has spent anytime at the tables will take note of a really bent mangled card and use that information. Cheating????? Heck no!!! Unethical, heck no!!!!
Smart??? Hell Yes!!!!.
Some stores change cards if handled by patrons every 2 hrs, some 4, some 6, and a very few much longer. Hell some change cards every hour if they think some funny stuff is happening.
Let's face it, ya play cards long enough and eventually your gonna acidentally benda card or two. Spill a drink or two, crap happens!!!! Use the damn information.!!!
Again be very careful of the dark area and if you do enter the dark zone, well me thinks you had better have Nersesians number handy.

Machinist

 

[aslan]

"no one forces these idiots to blow their cash" is an excuse I hear from dealers all the time. It is not a sad case when idiots think they can win. the majority of casino patrons actually believe they can win. I know I did when I first turned 21 in vegas. thus, the entire casino industry is one large 3 card monty hustle, that has been approved by law. the industry is no different from predatory lending, ARM loans, and derivatives trading. A big hustle on a global scale.

I agree, especially with what you say about young people.

Most older ploppies I talk with set aside a set amount they will lose, say $300 or $500, figuring they will lose, but hoping they will get lucky.

It's amazing how many people have this idea that they are "good" people and therefore the fates will look kindly on them. Even my gambling buddy that I go to AC a lot with does good deeds, I think in part, because he thinks it will bring him good luck, i.e., makes him deserving of a win. Karma is another such notion.

Being a Christian, chances are if God really loves me a lot maybe I will get crucified!!! Therefore, belief in the supernatural may not be much help to me in the casino. :laugh:

The casino does practice great deception in its advertising. I have said many times that thousands lose their life savings in Vegas each year. It is very sad. The government and therefore the law are complicit in all this. Casinos are not required to spell out the chances people really have to beat them. In that respect, it is a disgrace. More onus is put on people to understand the complexities of casino play than they have the wherewithal to figure out. People are by nature trusting. Many assume the government would not allow a complete ripoff to be legal. They figure the games must be fair, or they'd be shut down. They should be shut down, or at least, the odds of winning posted prominently on each game.

 

[aslan]

Yep, cheating has a legal def. In Nevada:



Now, that does not say that it is cheating if you have nothing to do with the circumstance.

Spot on.

 

[HockeXpert]

my point is.....in either case, it needs to be proved.

The proof will be in the video evidence. After the fresh ace is inserted into the shoe, the person that spilled the drink suddenly has the power to summon that new card into their hand at will and it coincidentally is the only time the player bets table max.

Connecting the dots is the hard part. Proving it is easy.

 

[aslan]

my point is.....in either case, it needs to be proved.

And our point is that it is cheating... murder. That means something to some people.

 

[Richard Munchkin]

I know what the law says. but It would be pretty tough to prove that it was intentional spilling. well, it wouldn't be tough to prove if you are a known AP, but I am not.

I think there is a chance of getting arrested, but I doubt the case would ever be prosecuted. Especially if this is a face up game where you never touched the cards.

 

[Jack_Black]

The proof will be in the video evidence. After the fresh ace is inserted into the shoe, the person that spilled the drink suddenly has the power to summon that new card into their hand at will and it coincidentally is the only time the player bets table max.

Connecting the dots is the hard part. Proving it is easy.

what??? proving INTENT is the hard part. that's been the focus of the discussion for the latter half of this thread. first off, the floor would have to figure out how I knew an ace was coming. I might just get backed off. let's say they don't back me off. let's say they look at the cards while they backroom me(already good stuff for a lawsuit) so suddenly the peabrain power figure out that the one ace was a new ace, and looked different from the rest of the shoe. and they figured a drink that I had spilled ACCIDENTALLY gave the reason for getting a new ace out. did you miss the posts by machinist? I suggest you start watching some CSI: vegas to understand what we're talking about. lol.

 

[Jack_Black]

And our point is that it is cheating... murder. That means something to some people.

cheating a cheater means something to some people?

 

[aslan]

cheating a cheater means something to some people?

Cheating is cheating.

 

[2nd2noCasino]

Well out of all the casinos I have been to in my time, I have yet to see a casino just change ONE card. Every time something like this has happend in my experience they change ALL the cards just my experience though. But I suppose if you find a casino cheap enough that doesn't change out the decks every shift it might work but how old would those cards have to be ?

 

[aslan]

Well out of all the casinos I have been to in my time, I have yet to see a casino just change ONE card. Every time something like this has happend in my experience they change ALL the cards just my experience though. But I suppose if you find a casino cheap enough that doesn't change out the decks every shift it might work but how old would those cards have to be ?

At a major casino last month, a card appeared during the shuffle with it's corner damaged. The PC was summoned. He found the damaged card in a matching deck of cards. By the time he returned, the cards were already shuffled. The table agreed not to waste anymore time, but to burn the newly replaced card. The PC agreed, and the burn card became the replaced card, and we proceeded to play the new shoe.

 

[Thunder]

the industry is no different from predatory lending, ARM loans, and derivatives trading. A big hustle on a global scale.

You have derivatives trading in there but not stock trading???? Stocks are manipulated far far more than derivatives. I also resent being told essentially that what I do is on the same level as predatory lending and ARM loans. I in no way deceive people when trading or aspire to take advantage of them.