AP move or just cheating?
- Thread starter Jack_Black
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iCountNTrack
Well-Known Member
This whole thread is laughable, especially when people think that intentionally spilling a drink to have a card marked is not cheating. Also laughable are the statements justifying this kind of pathetic measures because the casino industry is "evil".
Let's get this straight, casinos are not evil, but some people are stupid. Casino industry is just like any other business, and for the business to be lucrative you have to put "feelings" on the side there are no emotions in business.
Businesses prey on people's vices, do you think the car dealerships have any remorse for customers who exchange their car every year, or how about the stripper for the guy who comes every night to shower her with hundreds of dollars in singles...
Casinos have every right to make the game unbeatable, as you have the choice of playing or not playing. i do condemn some scammy casino practices especially with side games with ridiculous house edge.
When Thorp published beat the dealer, people who love math and cards were excited about beating the casino using their brains, but if AP has come down to spilling drinks to have a card marked or hiring midgets, by all means "count" me out
Let's get this straight, casinos are not evil, but some people are stupid. Casino industry is just like any other business, and for the business to be lucrative you have to put "feelings" on the side there are no emotions in business.
Businesses prey on people's vices, do you think the car dealerships have any remorse for customers who exchange their car every year, or how about the stripper for the guy who comes every night to shower her with hundreds of dollars in singles...
Casinos have every right to make the game unbeatable, as you have the choice of playing or not playing. i do condemn some scammy casino practices especially with side games with ridiculous house edge.
When Thorp published beat the dealer, people who love math and cards were excited about beating the casino using their brains, but if AP has come down to spilling drinks to have a card marked or hiring midgets, by all means "count" me out
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
hmmm
casinos aren't evil with all the fancy footed chicanery they pull on their patrons?, it's just business, but a pro AP who pulls a stunt such as the drink spilling, he's evil.
well yes it is a crummy thing to do, ruin a card and dirty up the felt, i'll give you that. it also seems a silly ignorant AP move IMHO, but hey, it's just business. just preying upon the casino's vice, greed. and the powers that be of casino's are beyond a doubt, greedy to the point of being way, way out of line, IMHO. it's not jus some scammy casino practices especially with side games with ridiculous house edge. i mean heck have you looked at any slot machines lately?
so morality? uhmm, the really thing here is legality, no?
so but casinos have every right to do what they do, but the patrons? hmm, well that's a whole nuther subject, isn't it?
so but as far as the glorious position of mathematically using ones brains (or should i say racking ones brains) to pretentiously 'peak' at some reality about some card game thus gaining an edge over the game as opposed to some simpler method such as spilling drinks, hiring midgets or whatever the case may be, oh well that has nothing to do with using brains. hmm, oh really?
no disrespect to maths here, for sure, but lets not lose respect for physics either, you know, blocks & tackle, pulleys, levers and such, you know human ingenuity. there's more ways to skin a cat than just one.:cat:
just me maybe but your argument is a bit laughable.iCountNTrack said:
casinos aren't evil with all the fancy footed chicanery they pull on their patrons?, it's just business, but a pro AP who pulls a stunt such as the drink spilling, he's evil.
well yes it is a crummy thing to do, ruin a card and dirty up the felt, i'll give you that. it also seems a silly ignorant AP move IMHO, but hey, it's just business. just preying upon the casino's vice, greed. and the powers that be of casino's are beyond a doubt, greedy to the point of being way, way out of line, IMHO. it's not jus some scammy casino practices especially with side games with ridiculous house edge. i mean heck have you looked at any slot machines lately?so morality? uhmm, the really thing here is legality, no?
so but casinos have every right to do what they do, but the patrons? hmm, well that's a whole nuther subject, isn't it?
so but as far as the glorious position of mathematically using ones brains (or should i say racking ones brains) to pretentiously 'peak' at some reality about some card game thus gaining an edge over the game as opposed to some simpler method such as spilling drinks, hiring midgets or whatever the case may be, oh well that has nothing to do with using brains. hmm, oh really?
no disrespect to maths here, for sure, but lets not lose respect for physics either, you know, blocks & tackle, pulleys, levers and such, you know human ingenuity. there's more ways to skin a cat than just one.:cat:
A lot of what you said is true but the owners want to make the most money not have the highest house edge. It is the everything happens in a vacuum bean counter that says a higher edge means more profit that is the problem. But like all things including taxes you reach a point were a higher rate brings a smaller return because of the impact it has on how your customer patronizes your establishment. If I have X dollars that I can lose every week and It entertains me all weekend I might think I got a good deal. And if my bankroll went up and down a lot a long the way I might feel I have a good shot at being ahead. But if I lose my money in an hour and see no meaningful up swings I will think my money would be better used for some other form of entertainment. Especially cause I don't think I am likely to win anyway. At this point the bean counter is costing the casino money with too high a house edge. Eventually they figure this out and offer better gamessagefr0g said:just me maybe but your argument is a bit laughable.
casinos aren't evil with all the fancy footed chicanery they pull on their patrons?, it's just business, but a pro AP who pulls a stunt such as the drink spilling, he's evil.
so morality? uhmm, the really thing here is legality, no?
so but casinos have every right to do what they do, but the patrons? hmm, well that's a whole nuther subject, isn't it?
so but as far as the glorious position of mathematically using ones brains (or should i say racking ones brains) to pretentiously 'peak' at some reality about some card game thus gaining an edge over the game as opposed to some simpler method such as spilling drinks, hiring midgets or whatever the case may be, oh well that has nothing to do with using brains. hmm, oh really?
no disrespect to maths here, for sure, but lets not lose respect for physics either, you know, blocks & tackle, pulleys, levers and such, you know human ingenuity. there's more ways to skin a cat than just one.:cat:
Jack_Black
Well-Known Member
Well said my A$$, aslan!!! it's obvious ICNT didn't thoroughly read through the thread, nor does he present new arguments that we haven't already discussed. Instead he labels the thread and posters as being pathetic when it is he who being pathetic by being closed minded, and unwilling to present new argument topics.iCountNTrack said:
I find that I have to repeat myself to respond to your pathetic post ICNT. So why don't YOU get it straight. casinos have a right to make a game unbeatable, yet 3 card monty hustlers do not? I never once used the word "evil" to describe casinos, but I do find it unethical. Are you telling me that there is not one single industry that goes against your own ethics? arms dealers, drug cartels, abortion clinics, boiler room operations, insurance, something I'm sure finds you intolerable. Unless you yourself are unethical.
A car dealership isn't unethical. it's the practices they use that make them unethical. That's why I mentioned predatory lenders and not mortgage brokers as a whole. A real business uses sound business strategy to find customers. they don't resort to using sleaze tactics like what a casino or some car dealerships use. they use referrals, word of mouth, reputation. Do you know what the definition of any of these words are? You think Google, Apple, wal mart, berkshire hathaway became as big as they did by preying on people's vices??? a strip bar isn't unethical at all. you give the ho money to dance for you and she dances for you. It's not like you give the ho money with the understanding that she's gonna dance for you, then she decides not too. Likewise, a casino promotes that you can win at a game, but there's no hope for you. and even if you did beat it legally, they can still 86 you? but you advertised that I can win here!?!?
Of course I enjoy beating casinos at their own game fair and square. it's what got me into being an AP in the first place. but being amongst the sleaze, it starts to rub off on you. It's almost expected of you. "if AP has come down to spilling drinks and midgets...." Wtf kind of response is that, especially coming from a mod? No, it has not come down to that for me. As an AP, you have to work every angle, because legal +EV opportunities are rare, and when they do happen, you have to hit it hard. So what's wrong with helping to make an opportunity happen?
are you telling me you're not disgusted by the fact that cheating $20mil out of a casino will get you 20 years in jail. but cheat $20 mil in online poker will only get you 86'ed from that website? laws are only written to appease those with power and money. You can get a taste of being above the law by hiring an expensive lawyer to get you out of trouble. which is what I highly recommend if someone ever decides to pull this move. Not for me though. I just enjoy the discussion of laws and ethics.:devil:
get a clue ICNT. think before you write. I can't believe you're defending a casino before defending an AP.
added statement
I can't believe this thread is getting so many responses, for a trick that will very rarely work anyway, and even THEN; conditions have to be just right for proper execution.
Just as Hollywood never makes a movie which depicts a perfect crime; Richard Marcus does not publicly reveal his GOOD stuff.
Please don't anyone ever show up at MY table & slow down my game by trying this amateur stunt. :flame:
I can't believe this thread is getting so many responses, for a trick that will very rarely work anyway, and even THEN; conditions have to be just right for proper execution.
Just as Hollywood never makes a movie which depicts a perfect crime; Richard Marcus does not publicly reveal his GOOD stuff.
Please don't anyone ever show up at MY table & slow down my game by trying this amateur stunt. :flame:
aslan
Well-Known Member
Now don't fall off your lily pad, Sage, my green friend, or get yur tongue wrapped round a hornets nest. I really hope you don't plan to use any of them pulleys and levers at the tables, good buddy, cuz I don't want me and macho and Creeping Panther to have ta come and bail you out of the hoosegow. But you certainly do make some fine points, especially about how even criminal acts can require the use of brainpower, and how the greedy casinos go so much further than they have to to make a decent profit.sagefr0g said:just me maybe but your argument is a bit laughable.
casinos aren't evil with all the fancy footed chicanery they pull on their patrons?, it's just business, but a pro AP who pulls a stunt such as the drink spilling, he's evil.
so morality? uhmm, the really thing here is legality, no?
so but casinos have every right to do what they do, but the patrons? hmm, well that's a whole nuther subject, isn't it?
so but as far as the glorious position of mathematically using ones brains (or should i say racking ones brains) to pretentiously 'peak' at some reality about some card game thus gaining an edge over the game as opposed to some simpler method such as spilling drinks, hiring midgets or whatever the case may be, oh well that has nothing to do with using brains. hmm, oh really?
no disrespect to maths here, for sure, but lets not lose respect for physics either, you know, blocks & tackle, pulleys, levers and such, you know human ingenuity. there's more ways to skin a cat than just one.:cat:
Maybe casinos should be declared "utilities" and therefore subject to a state-imposed rate (HA) that they can charge. :laugh: Utility, you say? Yes, they simply supply the needed gambling outlet that many citizens need to live happy, well rounded lives. It's a public service, and as such, should not be the occasion of casino greed and avarice. What say we set the HA at 0.5, no, maybe 0.2 for starters and see if they can reach a 3% to 8% overall rate of return. And, if they exceed some predetermined profit threshold, say, 8%, all the overage must be returned to patrons in the form of comps, and the HA must be set back to a level calculated to achieve an allowable rate of return.
Do you think Chris Christie might get this law enacted? I double dog dare him.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
a penny for your thoughts
just curious, (and really this is what this thread is all about, IMHO), how do you make the distinction between cheating and the various forms of AP?
just me maybe, it's a not so easy dark & murky slippery slope to traverse, and doubtless few if any of us want to cross that line in our venture to beat the casinos challenge that they offer up to us.
and then we have the question of legality. even murkier, even more slippery and more dangerous of a slope to traverse, IMHO. errrhh, i mean heck it's confusing, cheating from my perspective is a rather nebulous concept, what one person considers cheating another may not, but ok, the law, well hmm, that should be pretty much cut and dried, understandable. just me maybe, but i doubt it, who the heck can read the law and truly understand all that lawyer talk, and further more, say you pay a lawyer to translate the law for you, lol..... who wants to trust a lawyer to be correct? is each states laws different for casinos?
a penny for your thoughts......
kudos, that's another thing you are highly respected for, errhh not closed-minded but a non-cheater.QFIT said:
just curious, (and really this is what this thread is all about, IMHO), how do you make the distinction between cheating and the various forms of AP?
just me maybe, it's a not so easy dark & murky slippery slope to traverse, and doubtless few if any of us want to cross that line in our venture to beat the casinos challenge that they offer up to us.
and then we have the question of legality. even murkier, even more slippery and more dangerous of a slope to traverse, IMHO. errrhh, i mean heck it's confusing, cheating from my perspective is a rather nebulous concept, what one person considers cheating another may not, but ok, the law, well hmm, that should be pretty much cut and dried, understandable. just me maybe, but i doubt it, who the heck can read the law and truly understand all that lawyer talk, and further more, say you pay a lawyer to translate the law for you, lol..... who wants to trust a lawyer to be correct? is each states laws different for casinos?
a penny for your thoughts......
QFIT
Well-Known Member
Basically, if it's not allowed here: http://www.qfit.com/nevada-gambling-laws.htm, don't do it.sagefr0g said:
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
cheating, what the heck is it
ps ... hey Three, not a psychopAPth here, just young and easily confused.
that's appreciated QFIT, but doesn't fully answer my question unless you equate cheating with breaking the law. i'm curious as to how you distinguish between AP & cheating. no problem if you prefer not to respond.QFIT said:
ps ... hey Three, not a psychopAPth here, just young and easily confused.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
hmm, close but no cigar
interesting answer "against the spirit of the law", kind of covers your opinion of Keith Taft, lol.
and just saying it's probably cheating, covers the incongruity, disparity of Nevada's laws and New Jersey's laws with respect to how card counters can be dealt with, cuts out some of that possible Mafia influence with respect to Nevada laws.... lol.
wise to know the law, no doubt.
what is it 'they' say..... "ignorance of the law is no excuse", "should have known or could have known"?
thank you very much for your take on the matter.:3rd:
no wonder my friend, oft-times boss and AP mentor, Machinist (future President of the United States) finds you so perplexing, lol.QFIT said:
interesting answer "against the spirit of the law", kind of covers your opinion of Keith Taft, lol.
and just saying it's probably cheating, covers the incongruity, disparity of Nevada's laws and New Jersey's laws with respect to how card counters can be dealt with, cuts out some of that possible Mafia influence with respect to Nevada laws.... lol.
wise to know the law, no doubt.
what is it 'they' say..... "ignorance of the law is no excuse", "should have known or could have known"?
thank you very much for your take on the matter.:3rd: