AP move or just cheating?

[sagefr0g]

Now don't fall off your lily pad, Sage, my green friend, or get yur tongue wrapped round a hornets nest. I really hope you don't plan to use any of them pulleys and levers at the tables, good buddy, cuz I don't want me and macho and Creeping Panther to have ta come and bail you out of the hoosegow. But you certainly do make some fine points, especially about how even criminal acts can require the use of brainpower, and how the greedy casinos go so much further than they have to to make a decent profit.

omg aslan, lol, you are the funniest man in the world.
but i think you know darn well, if anything i'm gonna do, is my darnedest to not cross that legal line, lol. no devices here (edit: but i do think devices outa be allowed in some cases). heck man, and you know i don't wanna hop across the ethical moral line, either.
hey, AP's imho should be like doctors, 'do no harm' .....
but heck, just me maybe, maybe wrong here, but if you hustled the hustlers, hat's off to yah.:1st:, wouldn't call ya a psychopAPth .

Maybe casinos should be declared "utilities" and therefore subject to a state-imposed rate (HA) that they can charge. :laugh: Utility, you say? Yes, they simply supply the needed gambling outlet that many citizens need to live happy, well rounded lives. It's a public service, and as such, should not be the occasion of casino greed and avarice. What say we set the HA at 0.5, no, maybe 0.2 for starters and see if they can reach a 3% to 8% overall rate of return. And, if they exceed some predetermined profit threshold, say, 8%, all the overage must be returned to patrons in the form of comps, and the HA must be set back to a level calculated to achieve an allowable rate of return.

Do you think Chris Christie might get this law enacted? I double dog dare him.

hmm, i think the states do have a threshold the casinos are allowed to hold for some games, don't they? not sure how that works.
but my point is, just maybe casino's could 'evolve' into something a bit less ludicrous than they now are. lmao, i mean heck :cry: advantage situations are so darned rare, and likely not purposely created, the bastards just want every last patrons money, lol. i dunno, maybe use their poker rooms as some sort of a model, far as giving us suckers an even break, as to how they design casinos, take their vig up off that maybe? ie. more genuine competition amongst the patrons, edit:(i think if you think about it you'll get my drift)..

 

[aslan]

no wonder my friend, oft-times boss and AP mentor, Machinist (future President of the United States) finds you so perplexing, lol.

interesting answer "against the spirit of the law", kind of covers your opinion of Keith Taft, lol.
and just saying it's probably cheating, covers the incongruity, disparity of Nevada's laws and New Jersey's laws with respect to how card counters can be dealt with, cuts out some of that possible Mafia influence with respect to Nevada laws.... lol.

wise to know the law, no doubt.
what is it 'they' say..... "ignorance of the law is no excuse", "should have known or could have known"?

thank you very much for your take on the matter.:3rd:

Be as informed about the law as you can.

Don't do anything out of the ordinary until you can confirm that it is not considered cheating by the law.

Follow your conscience. This doesn't work for everyone, because some people are inured to wrongdoing, which is a fancy way of saying they do something wrong so much that they no longer realize it is wrong. They are desensitized. But I know you well enough that you won't have to worry about that one.

It's funny that holecarding is legal, yet if someone holecards for you and signals you, it is illegal.

Also, a healthy fear of going to jail should serve you well.

 

[aslan]

omg aslan, lol, you are the funniest man in the world.
but i think you know darn well, if anything i'm gonna do, is my darnedest to not cross that legal line, lol. no devices here. heck man, and you know i don't wanna hop across the ethical moral line, either.
hey, AP's imho should be like doctors, 'do no harm' .....
but heck, just me maybe, maybe wrong here, but if you hustled the hustlers, hat's off to yah.:1st:, wouldn't call ya a psychopAPth .

hmm, i think the states do have a threshold the casinos are allowed to hold for some games, don't they? not sure how that works.
but my point is, just maybe casino's could 'evolve' into something a bit less ludicrous than they now are. lmao, i mean heck :cry: advantage situations are so darned rare, and likely not purposely created, the bastards just want every last patrons money, lol. i dunno, maybe use their poker rooms as some sort of a model, far as giving us suckers an even break, as to how they design casinos, take their vig up off that maybe? ie. more genuine competition amongst the patrons, edit:(i think if you think about it you'll get my drift)..

It's funny that we do something (AP) every chance we get, that if they closed the loopholes, and there was no advantage play to be had, we would quit playing altogether. Just maybe, they don't want us to quit, because maybe enough of us are giving them more than we are willing to admit. When I say we, I mean the editorial we; I am excluding you and me. :laugh:

 

[sagefr0g]

now we're getting some where

Well, Keith Taft cheated. No ifs, and or buts.

lol, won't argue with yah, as i'm not aware of all the facts, time line, laws, ect...

A few past comments of ethics: (Dead link: http://www.qfit.com/blackjackblog/?p=124)

:1st: ........wow, there is a lot to digest there. maybe won't agree with it all, but kudos!!!

 

[sagefr0g]

Be as informed about the law as you can.

Don't do anything out of the ordinary until you can confirm that it is not considered cheating by the law.

Follow your conscience. This doesn't work for everyone, because some people are inured to wrongdoing, which is a fancy way of saying they do something wrong so much that they no longer realize it is wrong. They are desensitized. But I know you well enough that you won't have to worry about that one.

It's funny that holecarding is legal, yet if someone holecards for you and signals you, it is illegal.

Also, a healthy fear of going to jail should serve you well.

i'm liking this aslan........ are you sure about the signaling, illegality?
fear of jail? bingo!!!!!

 

[sagefr0g]

It's funny that we do something (AP) every chance we get, that if they closed the loopholes, and there was no advantage play to be had, we would quit playing altogether. Just maybe, they don't want us to quit, because maybe enough of us are giving them more than we are willing to admit. When I say we, I mean the editorial we; I am excluding you and me. :laugh:

yup, good to be ahead of the game, with soul intact, or at least conscious intact.......

 

[sagefr0g]

Now don't fall off your lily pad, Sage, my green friend, ....
.......... But you certainly do make some fine points, especially about how even criminal acts can require the use of brainpower, and how the greedy casinos go so much further than they have to to make a decent profit.

.....

little more to say on the bolded section above aslan.....
my point didn't have anything to do with criminal acts requiring brainpower......
more to the point the chemister made regarding the much hallowed position of Thorpe's beating casinos with mathematics. yes maths are a great tool with regard to beating the casinos, but there is much more to it, IMHO. but here is the thing, give any dumb sh!t a formula, a game plan based on some maths and yeah he can probably maybe beat the casino. but you are just giving the man a fish and casinos change all the time, but teach a man to fish and he'll eat a lifetime. point being, it's all about finding and figuring out how to gain an advantage, maths may be part of it, but simply isn't the whole story, the key to the kingdom, lol.
furthermore,once one pegs an advantage, there may be no need for use of math, that simple, ie. brainwork yes, math yes but the exalted position attributed to math is not the whole story or worthy of all the glory. like Renzey says, keep it simple stupid........ not you or anyone else but all of us, lol.

 

[aslan]

i'm liking this aslan........ are you sure about the signaling, illegality?
fear of jail? bingo!!!!!

If the players are all at the same table, it's may be legal from what I've read. If the spook is at another table, especially in a position behind the dealer, I think the likelihood of being found guilty rises significantly. Even if you are at the same table, a previous verdict does not guarantee you the same result, only a better chance. Would you do something that had the chance for a guilty verdict and a jail sentence for a felony? http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/spooking.htm

Now, morally speaking, I do not have any problem using observation to gain an advantage. One might see a difference, however, between the casual use of observation as it occurs by chance in a game, and the making of one's living by seeking out opportunities to employ hole carding and/or spooking, putting together a team, and profiting off this deliberately sought out weakness in a casino dealer. Card counting, OTOH, takes advantage of a weakness in a game that the casino has deliberately put there. Hole carding takes advantage of a weakness that was never meant to be there. There's a difference, but is it enough to make you avoid this AP?

To me it's like discovering that the cards used by the casino have marks that give the value of the card. You can't be certain that this is deliberate by someone or that the manufacturing process has a systemic flaw in it, unintentionally resulting in marked cards. How would you act:

Would you--

(1) take advantage of this unintended windfall of knowledge and make an enormous profit, or

(2) say to yourself, it would be cheating to take advantage of this; I will report my discovery to the division of gaming enforcement/gaming commission, or

(3) say to yourself, this would be cheating, so I will simply play at another casino; I'm not going to cheat, but it's the casino's problem not mine, or

(4) say to yourself, this may be deliberate, so once it is discovered, they may think I am part of the plot and arrest me; therefore, I will either report it to the house/gaming commission in hopes of a reward, or I will play at another casino to stay far away from potential trouble?

 

[QFIT]

Legality depends upon jurisdiction and methodology. For example, there is a casino where it is sometimes possible to determine the hole card at a table without even being on the casino floor. (Sorry, can't give details.) That would be illegal to communicate.

 

[aslan]

little more to say on the bolded section above aslan.....
my point didn't have anything to do with criminal acts requiring brainpower......
more to the point the chemister made regarding the much hallowed position of Thorpe's beating casinos with mathematics. yes maths are a great tool with regard to beating the casinos, but there is much more to it, IMHO. but here is the thing, give any dumb sh!t a formula, a game plan based on some maths and yeah he can probably maybe beat the casino. but you are just giving the man a fish and casinos change all the time, but teach a man to fish and he'll eat a lifetime. point being, it's all about finding and figuring out how to gain an advantage, maths may be part of it, but simply isn't the whole story, the key to the kingdom, lol.
furthermore,once one pegs an advantage, there may be no need for use of math, that simple, ie. brainwork yes, math yes but the exalted position attributed to math is not the whole story or worthy of all the glory. like Renzey says, keep it simple stupid........ not you or anyone else but all of us, lol.

Ah, a thousand pardons, Monsieur Froggie, I misinterpreted your meaning when you said... "blocks & tackle, pulleys, levers and such, you know human ingenuity. there's more ways to skin a cat than just one."

In terms of blackjack, yes, it may be giving a man a fish, if the game changes that much, which is hasn't, or it may be giving him one way to fish, when there are plenty of other ways, nets, lines, dynamite, spears, 38 special, etc. But I believe you are alluding to other games in the wild kingdom, so that if fishing dries up, you may want to learn how to hunt, how to farm, or how to raise livestock. Now I've probably muddled up the whole shebang, but I did catch your drift, and I am working on the same line of thought-- ask macho.

 

[Richard Munchkin]

it's all about finding and figuring out how to gain an advantage,

Exactly! So the aspiring AP will look at this for the same reason he would read Steve Forte's Casino Protection. Not to learn how to cheat, but to say, "Here is an example of a cheat getting a big edge. How can I get that same edge without cheating?"

Note to Aslan - According to Bob Nersesian - signaling is NOT cheating or illegal. At least not when the players are seated at the same table.

 

[aslan]

Exactly! So the aspiring AP will look at this for the same reason he would read Steve Forte's Casino Protection. Not to learn how to cheat, but to say, "Here is an example of a cheat getting a big edge. How can I get that same edge without cheating?"

Note to Aslan - According to Bob Nersesian - signaling is NOT cheating or illegal. At least not when the players are seated at the same table.

That agrees with what Arnold Snyder and Steven Minagil, Atty., wrote. They further commented that the Einbinder/Dalbenthis case covered only a narrow set of facts. The next judge may choose to ignore the case due to a different set of facts that casts it in a different light.

In the Einbinder/Dalben decision the facts were that they were lawfully seated at the table and used no artificial devices to aid their vision. I believe those are the key facts upon which the decision is based. I see the Court making a distinction between those facts and a situation where a person is assisting a player, and the assisting person is not at the table.
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/spooking.htm​

The article ends with this caution: So, if you're under the impression that the Einbinder/Dalben decision protects you as a hole-card player, be aware of the limitations of that protection. Cheating is a felony in Nevada. Don't take unnecessary chances.

 

[tthree]

Ah, a thousand pardons, Monsieur Froggie, I misinterpreted your meaning when you said... "blocks & tackle, pulleys, levers and such, you know human ingenuity. there's more ways to skin a cat than just one."

In terms of blackjack, yes, it may be giving a man a fish, if the game changes that much, which is hasn't, or it may be giving him one way to fish, when there are plenty of other ways, nets, lines, dynamite, spears, 38 special, etc. But I believe you are alluding to other games in the wild kingdom, so that if fishing dries up, you may want to learn how to hunt, how to farm, or how to raise livestock. Now I've probably muddled up the whole shebang, but I did catch your drift, and I am working on the same line of thought-- ask macho.

Let me know if that drift catch any fish with that line. Just a thought. You can always learn to gig amphibians. Don't let CP hear you guys talk about skinning cats.

 

[sagefr0g]

Ah, a thousand pardons, Monsieur Froggie, I misinterpreted your meaning when you said... "blocks & tackle, pulleys, levers and such, you know human ingenuity. there's more ways to skin a cat than just one."

ahh ok, my bad really, was trying to make an argument with the chemister with an analogy if figured he'd get the gist of.:devil::whip:

In terms of blackjack, yes, it may be giving a man a fish, if the game changes that much, which is hasn't, or it may be giving him one way to fish, when there are plenty of other ways, nets, lines, dynamite, spears, 38 special, etc. But I believe you are alluding to other games in the wild kingdom, so that if fishing dries up, you may want to learn how to hunt, how to farm, or how to raise livestock. Now I've probably muddled up the whole shebang, but I did catch your drift, and I am working on the same line of thought-- ask macho.

yeah, yeah dats it. geesh leave it to me to mess up an analogy.

edit: errhh wats dis three guy talkin bout giggin amphibians??? geeshh oopps skinnin cats gulp

 

[AussiePlayer]

In terms of blackjack, yes, it may be giving a man a fish, if the game changes that much, which is hasn't, or it may be giving him one way to fish, when there are plenty of other ways, nets, lines, dynamite, spears, 38 special, etc. But I believe you are alluding to other games in the wild kingdom, so that if fishing dries up, you may want to learn how to hunt, how to farm, or how to raise livestock.

No, that's cheating! :laugh:

 

[aslan]

Let me know if that drift catch any fish with that line. Just a thought. You can always learn to gig amphibians. Don't let CP hear you guys talk about skinning cats.

That was that Monsieur Sagefr0g who mentioned sk*nning cats. I know better. I have heard that CP enjoys cuisses de grenouille every now and then.

 

[Machinist]

opened a frogs eyes

Wow!!!
Great stuff here. Especially the timid ,meek Sagefrog. :grin: Not so timid he be anymore.
My, what a few years in the trenches will do for an AP/frog. Sage has seen simple stuff, not so simple stuff, very stressfull "stuff", and easy peasy stuff.
He's seen my handling of other AP's tryin to interrupt my gig. Sometimes nice, and sometimes not so nice. Nothing physical, just a bankroll and mental war.

Man, the line between legal and illegal can be so small. Using casino players cards is a huge part of machine "stuff". I believe, at times, I might have crossed the line. Morally have I? Sure I have, but morally enough to send me to hell? Naw.....Have I used other peoples player cards for cashback, points etc....? Sure I have, I'm sure that isn't to legal....
Remember I grew up on a farm, raised a dang strict catholic, so I do fight that everyday.
I surely don't claim to know all when it comes to machines, but I have seen some criminal stuff, and heard about a lot more criminal stuff.
I think we each have our own "Line" drawn in our mind. I do.
Now that I find myself at tables a lot more I am starting to see opportunities legal and illegal, gray and definitely dark areas.
A question I have thought a lot about is: In the good old BJ days how much money was made legally verses illegally or the melding of the two?

Heck now I don't know where the hell I was heading with this post.....Oh well, I gotta get back to building my wifes Tackroom for her horses.

Machinist

 

[aslan]

Wow!!!
Great stuff here. Especially the timid ,meek Sagefrog. :grin: Not so timid he be anymore.
My, what a few years in the trenches will do for an AP/frog. Sage has seen simple stuff, not so simple stuff, very stressfull "stuff", and easy peasy stuff.
He's seen my handling of other AP's tryin to interrupt my gig. Sometimes nice, and sometimes not so nice. Nothing physical, just a bankroll and mental war.

Man, the line between legal and illegal can be so small. Using casino players cards is a huge part of machine "stuff". I believe, at times, I might have crossed the line. Morally have I? Sure I have, but morally enough to send me to hell? Naw.....Have I used other peoples player cards for cashback, points etc....? Sure I have, I'm sure that isn't to legal....
Remember I grew up on a farm, raised a dang strict catholic, so I do fight that everyday.
I surely don't claim to know all when it comes to machines, but I have seen some criminal stuff, and heard about a lot more criminal stuff.
I think we each have our own "Line" drawn in our mind. I do.
Now that I find myself at tables a lot more I am starting to see opportunities legal and illegal, gray and definitely dark areas.
A question I have thought a lot about is: In the good old BJ days how much money was made legally verses illegally or the melding of the two?

Heck now I don't know where the hell I was heading with this post.....Oh well, I gotta get back to building my wifes Tackroom for her horses.

Machinist

I fought it for years. Fortunately, I lost. But I still fight, just not as much. It's the stuff that life's made of. Doin' what's best for us ain't no fun! :laugh:

 

[Dyepaintball12]

"2. To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome."

Wouldn't this apply to, say, every AP technique out there?

Raising your bets in high counts because you have acquired the knowledge? Or is it not because technically that information is available to everyone?

 

[aslan]

"2. To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome."

Wouldn't this apply to, say, every AP technique out there?

Raising your bets in high counts because you have acquired the knowledge? Or is it not because technically that information is available to everyone?

It would definitely seem to prohibit holecarding with assistance, even AT the table, formerly ruled legal in one Vegas court case. What jurisdiction's regulations are being cited?