Backed off at Gold Coast after winning big

[alwayssplitaces]

On my last day in Vegas I was playing the DD game heads up and spreading aggressively, 5-100. At TC +12, I had a $100 bet and $10 on the Lucky Ladies. Got 3 20's in a row, and the third 20 was 2 queens of hearts (I would have not been able to control myself if the dealer showed Ace, but the dealer didn't have BJ). The pit boss had to come to pay out $2000 for winning the lucky ladies bet. Then he said that I am no longer allowed to play blackjack at any Boyd Gaming casino.

Not a bad way to end my trip, but I hope this backoff won't have any future repercussions. They had to see my ID to pay off the winning Lucky Ladies bet and I'm getting a W2G.

For now, I'm just glad I won over $3500 this trip, with the majority of the profit coming from the Lucky Ladies win, the rest from blackjack and poker.

 

[moo321]

I don't think they needed to give you a W2g for $2000 on a table game. I think they were after your ID.

Anyways, Gold Coast is fairly sharp.

 

[bjcardcounter]

I don't think they needed to give you a W2g for $2000 on a table game. I think they were after your ID.

Anyways, Gold Coast is fairly sharp.

Did they have to cut the tax too?

 

[creeping panther]

Nice

Nice play!!:grin:

Congrats.

They will forget about the back-off, you have no need to worry at other Boyd Shops, Betcha.

CP

 

[Mewtwo]

I don't think they needed to give you a W2g for $2000 on a table game. I think they were after your ID.

Seconded.

"...winnings on all table game progressive side bets with payouts of 300 to 1 or more are fair game for the IRS."

The bet was not a progressive, nor was it over 300 to 1, nor were your total winnings $10,000 (to trigger a CTR.)

You were not obligated to show ID in this case, I believe?

 

[alwayssplitaces]

They told me that they needed to see my ID to generate a W2G since I won over $1000 at the table. I thought that it was true since the Lucky Ladies paid $2000, and I didn't want to give up that win. Then I got backed off blackjack. They said it in perhaps the nicest way possible "Sir, I see that you are playing blackjack very well. You're a smart, young man, and I can tell that you have come here to beat our game. These games are here for entertainment. I know you were not indiscriminately betting $10 on the Lucky Ladies, you had a system that would let you know when you can profit off it. You are welcome to play any of our other table games and slots, but you may not play blackjack at any Boyd Gaming property."

 

[bigplayer]

On my last day in Vegas I was playing the DD game heads up and spreading aggressively, 5-100. At TC +12, I had a $100 bet and $10 on the Lucky Ladies. Got 3 20's in a row, and the third 20 was 2 queens of hearts (I would have not been able to control myself if the dealer showed Ace, but the dealer didn't have BJ). The pit boss had to come to pay out $2000 for winning the lucky ladies bet. Then he said that I am no longer allowed to play blackjack at any Boyd Gaming casino.

Not a bad way to end my trip, but I hope this backoff won't have any future repercussions. They had to see my ID to pay off the winning Lucky Ladies bet and I'm getting a W2G.

For now, I'm just glad I won over $3500 this trip, with the majority of the profit coming from the Lucky Ladies win, the rest from blackjack and poker.

I think you're the first person ever backed off at a Coast Property. Just kidding...they backoff so many players that they'll forget you in a couple of months. You should, however, never use your players card again for blackjack.

 

[bigplayer]

They told me that they needed to see my ID to generate a W2G since I won over $1000 at the table. I thought that it was true since the Lucky Ladies paid $2000, and I didn't want to give up that win. Then I got backed off blackjack. They said it in perhaps the nicest way possible "Sir, I see that you are playing blackjack very well. You're a smart, young man, and I can tell that you have come here to beat our game. These games are here for entertainment. I know you were not indiscriminately betting $10 on the Lucky Ladies, you had a system that would let you know when you can profit off it. You are welcome to play any of our other table games and slots, but you may not play blackjack at any Boyd Gaming property."

There should be no W2-G's from any table game unless the payoff is greater than a certain amount of odds and 200:1 isn't the threshold as far as I know. I think it's 600:1.

 

[blackjack avenger]

The Final Straw

Seems obvious the lucky ladies was the final straw. It also gave the pit an opportunity to ID you, which helps their backoff records and probably kills your comp card in Boyd Vegas. Their reasons for requiring the ID were false.

Did they ever call checks play when you bet $100? If so then you probably should not have bet $100 because you did not generate a lot of extra ev for the scrutiny.

If one is a red chipper be hesitant on making $100 bets, they are a heat threshold in many small/medium casinos and low minimum tables. One can bet double $50s, $75s.

Based on your other thread, if you camped out all night going $5 to $100 then you obvisouly pushed it. Even red chippers need to leave if the chips pile up after a few big bets, that is if you ever want to play big in the future.

Do you physically stand out or blend in? Are you rememberable? This determines how long one needs to stay away, 6 months to a year for this property and probably for the other Boyd properties. It's better to be conservative regarding this considering the number of other casinos available. Do you play Boyd outside of vegas with that card? I would tread lightly. Again being conservative.

Now you know what can get you backed off, learn the lesson
:joker::whip:
good cards

 

[21forme]

There should be no W2-G's from any table game unless the payoff is greater than a certain amount of odds and 200:1 isn't the threshold as far as I know. I think it's 600:1.

You might want to contact Al Rogers (info at bj21 dot com) and talk to him about this. IIRC, he filed a complaint with Nevada Gaming a few months ago about several LV casinos using "the law" under false pretenses to get IDs, etc.

 

[Booper702]

I think you also threw money away. Why only $10 on the LL? Isn't $25 the max there?

 

[Southpaw]

I think you also threw money away. Why only $10 on the LL? Isn't $25 the max there?

Recall that:

Optimal Bet = (IBA)(Bankroll) / (Var.)

The problem with the LL bet is that the variance is rather high, thus making one's optimal wager quite low. Side-bets like O/U 13 are much more desirable, in part, because the variance is lower.

Spaw

 

[aslan]

You might want to contact Al Rogers (info at bj21 dot com) and talk to him about this. IIRC, he filed a complaint with Nevada Gaming a few months ago about several LV casinos using "the law" under false pretenses to get IDs, etc.

Good idea.

No such IRS requirement exists. I am trying to envision what you should do when confronted with such an out and out lie.

You might politely and firmly refuse to show your ID stating that you are well versed in the IRS laws and regulations, and see where it goes from there. I am not sure what to do after that, other than to attempt to quietly pick up your chips and leave. If they have not awarded all your winnings yet, then you must demand to be paid. Here's where it gets dicey. If they refuse, what recourse have you got but to demand police intervention. If that occurs, then your ID becomes a matter of public record anyway.

Alwayssplitaces may have done the only sensible thing, and like everyone says, he will likely be able to return later anyway. But I am licking my chops at the prospect of taking some legal action against the casino for wrongfully using a government requirement to extract private information from a citizen. Of course, they may cop a plea that they have the right to fill out a W2G wherever the customer voluntarily agrees. That was clearly not the case, but you might need witnesses to corroborate your claim. Whatever the outcome, I do hope that Rogers suggests a course of action for pursuing this violation.

Courts have been reasonable to the player's benefit recently (the trespass cases), so it would be nice to see the casino reprimanded and stiffly fined (hey, it's a Federal offense!). I wonder if there are any punitive damages, say, for embarrassing you in public or treating you like a common criminal. In this case, that seems to be stretching it. But, whatever, it would be nice to see another victory on the players' side.

Kudos to you, alwayssplitaces! Nice job!

 

[moo321]

It might be worth talking to an attorney. My question is: where are the damages? Even if you win, one casino in Vegas knows who you are? And you were already backed off there?

You'd have to like get a copy of a Griffin file they made, or a flyer sent to other casinos based on the ID to even prove damages. And that's assuming a judge or jury would even believe that you were damaged by not being able to count cards. That could be a stretch for most civilians.

 

[bjcardcounter]

Happened in AC

At a store in AC that has LL bet, a patron dreaming of hitting the LL asked the dealer if they will deduct taxes on it while paying for the side bet win. The dealer said yes and she has done that. Another guy next to him said IRS does not demand it for table games.

East Coast folks, please be prepared on it.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

They told me that they needed to see my ID to generate a W2G since I won over $1000 at the table. I thought that it was true since the Lucky Ladies paid $2000, and I didn't want to give up that win. Then I got backed off blackjack. They said it in perhaps the nicest way possible "Sir, I see that you are playing blackjack very well. You're a smart, young man, and I can tell that you have come here to beat our game. These games are here for entertainment. I know you were not indiscriminately betting $10 on the Lucky Ladies, you had a system that would let you know when you can profit off it. You are welcome to play any of our other table games and slots, but you may not play blackjack at any Boyd Gaming property."

I would have told them to go screw.

Too bad you were only betting $10! What's wrong with $25?

 

[21forme]

For the record, the following is what the W2G form says. #4 is what applies to LL (bolding by me):

The payer must furnish a Form W-2G to you if you
receive:
1. $1,200 or more in gambling winnings from bingo or slot
machines;
2. $1,500 or more in proceeds (the amount of winnings minus
the amount of the wager) from keno;
3. More than $5,000 in winnings (reduced by the wager or
buy-in) from a poker tournament;
4. $600 or more in gambling winnings (except winnings from
bingo, keno, slot machines, and poker tournaments) and the
payout is at least 300 times the amount of the wager; or
5. Any other gambling winnings subject to federal income tax
withholding.
Generally, report all gambling winnings on the “Other income”
line of Form 1040. You can deduct gambling losses as an
itemized deduction, but you cannot deduct more than your
winnings. Keep an accurate record of your winnings and losses,
and be able to prove those amounts with receipts, tickets,
statements, or similar items that you have saved. For additional
information, see Pub. 529, Miscellaneous Deductions, and Pub.
525, Taxable and Nontaxable Income.

 

[The Chaperone]

Yeah for table games and sports betting, the odds need to be >300:1 and over a certain amount. I thought that amount was 5k, but I could be wrong. 21forme's research says it's $600. Either way, this was a 200:1 payout and does not require ID. If this happened to me and I was playing anonymously I would have called the Gaming Commission. It's not that hard to have their number in your phone and I do. A couple times when I have done this, the mere threat of calling gaming has gotten the casino to back down.

I agree the situation does suck though because even the fact that you know the law and have the NGC phone number in your phone basically indicates that you are at the very least an extremely knowledgeable gambler and more than likely an AP.

 

[aslan]

Yeah for table games and sports betting, the odds need to be >300:1 and over a certain amount. I thought that amount was 5k, but I could be wrong. 21forme's research says it's $600. Either way, this was a 200:1 payout and does not require ID. If this happened to me and I was playing anonymously I would have called the Gaming Commission. It's not that hard to have their number in your phone and I do. A couple times when I have done this, the mere threat of calling gaming has gotten the casino to back down.

I agree the situation does suck though because even the fact that you know the law and have the NGC phone number in your phone basically indicates that you are at the very least an extremely knowledgeable gambler and more than likely an AP.

...but they won't have your ID!

 

[aslan]

It might be worth talking to an attorney. My question is: where are the damages? Even if you win, one casino in Vegas knows who you are? And you were already backed off there?

You'd have to like get a copy of a Griffin file they made, or a flyer sent to other casinos based on the ID to even prove damages. And that's assuming a judge or jury would even believe that you were damaged by not being able to count cards. That could be a stretch for most civilians.

I too doubt you can profit by their using a a false government requirement to extract your ID, but I would relish the casino's being found guilty of a Federal violation no matter the penalty imposed. It would also serve to make them refrain from such practices in the future. And lastly, the word would get around to other casinos. I see following up on this as a positive step to take with possible policy changing results. Do it for the Gipper... or the Grifter... or someone! :laugh: :1st: