Computer Aided Counting

[QFIT]

I called the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation and they said it was illegal. But, they're probably wrong since they didn't say it in all caps

 

[CountCardsandWin]

I called the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation and they said it was illegal. But, they're probably wrong since they didn't say it in all caps

Yeah ok, call them back and ask them specifically what law they are referring to. They will end up telling you its actually their 'policy', not the law.

Somehow I doubt they will just outright tell you that there is no specific law dealing with concealed devices. I would imagine it would take a fair bit of pressure to get such an admission.

In fact, it appears that for the majority of the USA they are NOT illegal, according to this blurb I found on Google:

computers (concealed). Concealed computers that are used as an aid in counting cards are not permitted in casinos. Blackjack computers have been designed to determine the true count or to make perfect playing decisions based on a given count. Specific statutes exist in Nevada that make it a felony to use these devices. In Atlantic City, you'll be asked to leave if you're caught with a concealed computer. If you return with your device, you can be arrested on a disorderly conduct charge. Atlantic City casinos are now lobbying for a tougher law.

So according to this info (which I admit might be dated) the only place where there is an outright prohibition is in NV. Even Atlantic City can only ask you to leave, which they can do if you are counting in your head anyways. And look at the charge if you return: disorderly conduct. Nothing to do with the device at all.

Again, lets not confuse Casino Policy with Illegal. If you come to my house and you don't follow my rules, I can ask you to leave. If you come back you can be charged with some misdemeanor trespassing like charge.

Anyways, I'm not out for a pissing contest, but in terms of Canadian Law, I have done my research. If you think I am wrong, give me a law or statute I can look at (in black and white) and if I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it. I have searched high and low and I can find no such statute in Canada.

 

[jetace]

Just curious CountCardsandWin...

Do you have any idea who is behind QFIT?

 

[QFIT]

Don't believe everything you see on the I'Net.

New Jersey Casino Control Act

Article 9

5:12-113.1 Use of device to obtain advantage at casino game a disorderly persons offense; forfeiture; notice

a. A person commits a third degree offense if, in playing a game in a licensed casino or simulcasting facility, the person uses, or assists another in the use of, a computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device which is designed, constructed, or programmed specifically for use in obtaining an advantage at playing any game in a licensed casino or simulcasting facility, unless the advantage obtained can be assessed a monetary value or loss of $75,000 or greater in which case the offense is a crime of the second degree.

b. Any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device used in violation of subsection a. of this section shall be considered prima facie contraband and shall be subject to the provisions of N.J.S. 2C:64-2. A device used by any person in violation of this section shall be subject to forfeiture pursuant to the provisions of N.J.S.2C:64-1 et seq.

 

[CountCardsandWin]

Don't believe everything you see on the I'Net.

New Jersey Casino Control Act

Article 9

5:12-113.1 Use of device to obtain advantage at casino game a disorderly persons offense; forfeiture; notice

a. A person commits a third degree offense if, in playing a game in a licensed casino or simulcasting facility, the person uses, or assists another in the use of, a computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device which is designed, constructed, or programmed specifically for use in obtaining an advantage at playing any game in a licensed casino or simulcasting facility, unless the advantage obtained can be assessed a monetary value or loss of $75,000 or greater in which case the offense is a crime of the second degree.

b. Any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device used in violation of subsection a. of this section shall be considered prima facie contraband and shall be subject to the provisions of N.J.S. 2C:64-2. A device used by any person in violation of this section shall be subject to forfeiture pursuant to the provisions of N.J.S.2C:64-1 et seq.

Like I said my info above could very well be dated regarding Atlantic city and apparently the legislation mentioned was pushed through, so I don't dispute that. So that makes NV and NJ where it is illegal.

I am, however, certain about my position regarding Canadian law.

 

[SystemsTrader]

OK CountCards you need to look at it from our perspective as card counters. Let's say you are right and it is not illegal but it is against casino policy. Either way it is a losing situation for counters if they get caught, because we will be kicked out and unable to perform our craft in that casino anymore. If caught with a computer they have physical evidence as proof you are a counter. If they catch you the traditional way while they assume you are a counter they really have no way to actually prove it.

Since you are Canadian I will put it into an analogy you will surely understand. While fighting in hockey is not illegal, if you are caught fighting you are penalized and kicked out of the game and are no longer any use to your team.

 

[CountCardsandWin]

OK CountCards you need to look at it from our perspective as card counters. Let's say you are right and it is not illegal but it is against casino policy. Either way it is a losing situation for counters if they get caught, because we will be kicked out and unable to perform our craft in that casino anymore. If caught with a computer they have physical evidence as proof you are a counter. If they catch you the traditional way while they assume you are a counter they really have no way to actually prove it.

Since you are Canadian I will put it into an analogy you will surely understand. While fighting in hockey is not illegal, if you are caught fighting you are penalized and kicked out of the game and are no longer any use to your team.

Hey I agree its not for everyone. Lets face it, some people (perhaps who we call ignorant) consider card counting itself somehow unethical. Others don't. And by the same token, some people have no problem with the concept of 'breaking the rules', others do.

I can tell you that all the Casinos I have played in Canada, NONE of them could give a rats ass if you were counting, even blatantly. Some of them love counters, because they make and lose some of the biggest bets. Many inspectors (pit bosses) openly told me they could could care less if you count cards, and even more remarkably, they will allow you to even sit at the table with a pencil and paper to manually mark down the cards. But they are deathly afraid of electronics, they apparently see some voodoo quality in them that turns losing hands into winners.

 

[zengrifter]

HERE is the ultimate device!

Here is the roulette device in the news! Probably 10x stronger than a BJ computer. zg
http://www.predictroulette.com/

Here is the previous discussion - http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=1763

---------------------

For sale for £1,000: gadget that means you'll never lose at roulette again

· Using hidden device 'does not count as cheating'
· System can give 100% advantage over casino

Paul Lewis
Saturday September 16, 2006
The Guardian

Professional gamblers are rushing to buy £1,000 devices that they believe will enable them to win millions of pounds in casinos when the gambling industry is deregulated next year.

Hundreds of the roulette-cheating machines - which consist of a small digital time recorder, a concealed computer and a hidden earpiece - were tested at a government laboratory in 2004 after a gang suspected of using them won £1.3m at the Ritz casino in London.

...continued here - http://www.guardian.co.uk/gambling/story/0,,1873910,00.html

 

[CountCardsandWin]

Here is the roulette device in the news! zg
http://www.predictroulette.com/

Here is the previous discussion - http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=1763

---------------------

For sale for £1,000: gadget that means you'll never lose at roulette again

· Using hidden device 'does not count as cheating'
· System can give 100% advantage over casino

Paul Lewis
Saturday September 16, 2006
The Guardian

Professional gamblers are rushing to buy £1,000 devices that they believe will enable them to win millions of pounds in casinos when the gambling industry is deregulated next year.

Hundreds of the roulette-cheating machines - which consist of a small digital time recorder, a concealed computer and a hidden earpiece - were tested at a government laboratory in 2004 after a gang suspected of using them won £1.3m at the Ritz casino in London.

...continued here - http://www.guardian.co.uk/gambling/story/0,,1873910,00.html

Very interesting information, particularly the part about being forced to pay people who were using the devices....and that they aren't being banned outright....(the devices that is).

Hehheh maybe I need to rejig for roulette....

 

[zengrifter]

I don't get why people are being so difficult, if you can count cards in your head then thats all fine and dandy, do so! If you don't like my product, then move on.....some people want to do it my way.

This is an expert counters site. If we were inclined towards devices we would use devices STRONGER than what you are offering (ie, video, laser sighting, roulette, etc.). zg

 

[zengrifter]

Hehheh maybe I need to rejig for roulette....

Thorp's Mathmatics of Gambling can provide you with the methodology, and others. I beleive that you can get the algorithms off the Web somewhere.

The device cited above, however, is state-of-art with invisible hearing aid and wireles input pen. zg

 

[CountCardsandWin]

This is an expert counters site. If we were inclined towards devices we would use devices STRONGER than what you are offering (ie, video, laser sighting, roulette, etc.). zg

Thats what I want to hear, I am a technology person and I dream of these devices like kids at x-mas dream of sugar plums....I have often dreamed of an auto-recognition counting system, where a camera is trained on the table and automatically reads the cards as they are dealt....of course once you have the data there are numerous possiblities (counting/tracking/ etc. etc. etc.)

 

[zengrifter]

Thats what I want to hear, I am a technology person and I dream of these devices like kids at x-mas dream of sugar plums....I have often dreamed of an auto-recognition counting system, where a camera is trained on the table and automatically reads the cards as they are dealt....of course once you have the data there are numerous possiblities (counting/tracking/ etc. etc. etc.)

How about a bionic arm that can throw controlled dice shots! zg

 

[CountCardsandWin]

How about a bionic arm that can throw controlled dice shots! zg

now theres one i hadn't thought of. But then again theres no craps in most of the casinos i've been to in Canada...

 

[Automatic Monkey]

This is an expert counters site. If we were inclined towards devices we would use devices STRONGER than what you are offering (ie, video, laser sighting, roulette, etc.). zg

How about for shuffle tracking? Major Tom is in the casino watching a shoe and talking on his cell phone to Ground Control, who is busily punching numbers into his desktop at home. At the end of the shoe, Ground Control hits the "Go" button, and a few seconds later tells Major Tom the play zones of the next shoe. Major Tom hangs up, turns off his cell phone, and plays the next shoe at great advantage.

Is that illegal? The computer being used was nowhere near the casino, and Major Tom was just talking on his cell phone like dozens of other people in the casino.

(I've already written the software!)

 

[QFIT]

Yes that's illegal in the US. It doesn't have to be a computer. If you have a shiny lighter that allows you to see the hole card it's an illegal device.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Yes that's illegal in the US. It doesn't have to be a computer. If you have a shiny lighter that allows you to see the hole card it's an illegal device.

I'd guess so, the cell phone would be the device. But more in line with the postmodern definition of the word "illegal"- a synonym for "Is it illegal?" is "Can you get caught?" You'd think the casino would have a difficult time proving what was being discussed in that conversation without a wiretap.

 

[Sonny]

How about for shuffle tracking?

That's exactly what Keith Taft's "Thor" computer was. It was incredibly powerful and could be concealed on the player's body:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/taftint.html

"That was the trip where I saw that when they shuffled the cards they were preserving different segments. You could know the content, or richness of various segments. This opened up the possibility of a larger edge, and more importantly would allow you to play in a manner that would not look like card counting…We went right to work in earnest on building a computer to shuffle track. We called it Thor. We met with our team members on July 16, 1979, and tested the new computer.

It was a lot of fun to play with Thor. It was like playing four or five single-deck games. As you crossed the boundary from one segment into another anything could happen. You would get end-play in each section. Your bets were all over the place, and we made wild plays. We were doing things way outside the norm. As a result, we didn’t get barred much…I don’t think we were ever barred with Thor."

At the end of the shoe, Ground Control hits the "Go" button, and a few seconds later tells Major Tom the play zones of the next shoe. Major Tom hangs up, turns off his cell phone, and plays the next shoe at great advantage. Is that illegal?

Technically yes because you are still using a “device” to predict the outcome of the game. It doesn’t matter if the device is in your pocket, in the parking lot or across the country.

-Sonny-

 

[zengrifter]

How about for shuffle tracking? Major Tom is in the casino watching a shoe and talking on his cell phone to Ground Control, who is busily punching numbers into his desktop at home. At the end of the shoe, Ground Control hits the "Go" button, and a few seconds later tells Major Tom the play zones of the next shoe. Major Tom hangs up, turns off his cell phone, and plays the next shoe at great advantage.

Is that illegal? The computer being used was nowhere near the casino, and Major Tom was just talking on his cell phone like dozens of other people in the casino.

(I've already written the software!)

I LIKE THIS ONE!!! zg(Turning republican so AutoMonk will share it with me!)

 

[zengrifter]

I'd guess so, the cell phone would be the device.

I don't think that it would be illegal for two reasons - 1) the device is not used "at the table", and 2) the Device Law is unconstitutional as currently written in Nevada. I'll also add that executed optimally it would be impossible to prosecute. LETS DO IT! zg