Counters don't tip

[bigplayer]

I calculated that tipping $2 an hour is 10% of my expected value. Even if I tip only when I'm winning, that's about 6% of my expected value. Plus, a measly $2 tip after winning $300 in a session looks cheap. So, to avoid that, I don't tip at all if other ploppies tip. They're going to lose their money anyway, might as well give some of it to the dealer. I increase my tip if the dealer is fast and gives better penetration and doesn't slow down the game by talking. Ironically the worst kind of dealer is the one who tries to start a conversation and deals half as many hands per hour because he's distracted. And of course, any error in my favor means no tip.

If your EV is only $20 per hour you should tip $0. You should only tip a moderate amount when winning big and betting big as part of an overall meta-cover strategy. (For the same reason you might stand on A7 vs 9).

Low stakes players spend too much time
1. Overestimating the power of their system
2. Underestimating the importance of avoiding bad games
3. Worrying about cover
4. Playing rated at too many places for comps
5. Tipping.

So...red to light green action players should
1. Realize any system that compares high to low cards will work just fine
2. Play only great games to build up bankroll and reduce risk
3. Not use ANY cover
4. Play rated only at a few places to generate mail and not worry about comps as you're not gonna get much other than mail offers
5. Don't Tip...you can't afford it.

 

[21forme]

(sorry no pizza guy, I don't eat pizza)

How can anyone not eat pizza?

Am I alone in not knowing who Steve Buscemi is?

Probably :laugh:

 

[gamblingghost]

No one asked you about your sex life!

My sex life!? Well, if you must know, I'm buy sexual. The only sex I get
I gotta buy it!:cry:

 

[moo321]

Migrant workers make even less, but no one is tipping them. How many people leave tips at motels and hotels for the maid?

I always tip the maid. They deserve it more than anyone else.

 

[moo321]

Well, I think we've hashed and re-hashed the tipping debate. At this point, I'm not sure we're getting anywhere, and it may be best to agree to disagree.

However, I think anyone that disagrees with me is a jerk, and you should tip a LITTLE, for pete's sake. I'm not saying you need to tip a green when you win a session. Most of the successful people I know are generous.

And if you're a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, you should read the parts of the Old Testament law concerning exploiting workers, not muzzling an ox while he is grinding grain, etc.

 

[aslan]

Well, I think we've hashed and re-hashed the tipping debate. At this point, I'm not sure we're getting anywhere, and it may be best to agree to disagree.

However, I think anyone that disagrees with me is a jerk, and you should tip a LITTLE, for pete's sake. I'm not saying you need to tip a green when you win a session. Most of the successful people I know are generous.

And if you're a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, you should read the parts of the Old Testament law concerning exploiting workers, not muzzling an ox while he is grinding grain, etc.

Then you should have stopped after the first paragraph.

That scripture bit is excellent advice............for employers, whose sole responsibility is for his employee's wages, but obviously was not meant for consumers of goods and services. The casino's attempt to lay the responsibility for the major portion of their dealers' wages on the customer seems to have worked in your case. Really, you need to take a fresh look at scriptures. Your present view is making you unnecessarily guilt ridden.

Instead of the scriptures, I'd say, go with the prevailing custom, which is, tip a little if you win. But if you feel the casinos are gaming the system by underpaying their dealers, don't tip. As one astute poster observed, there are enough ploppies out there tipping that the dealers will get enough to supplement their meager salaries. In my opinion, it is a custom in the making, and has not truly been established as a mandatory practice as of yet.

 

[bigplayer]

I could see this backfiring bigtime if what you tipped was looked at as a very small amount.

that is a major problem...there is usually no realistic amount of tip that dealers are really happy with. If you win $10,000 and ask them how much they think they deserve they'll tell you 10%. There is no keeping those blood sucking leaches happy...especially in places where they keep their own tokes and work a rubber band. I was at a casino in Arizona where at the end of the night the dealers were being changed out every 10 minutes and each one was pissed if you didn't tip them.

 

[Shoofly]

Low stakes players spend too much time
1. Overestimating the power of their system
2. Underestimating the importance of avoiding bad games
3. Worrying about cover
4. Playing rated at too many places for comps
5. Tipping.

So...red to light green action players should
1. Realize any system that compares high to low cards will work just fine
2. Play only great games to build up bankroll and reduce risk
3. Not use ANY cover
4. Play rated only at a few places to generate mail and not worry about comps as you're not gonna get much other than mail offers
5. Don't Tip...you can't afford it.

Excellent advice. I would only disagree on No. 4. If a red chipper does not have to worry about cover, why not play rated to receive what few crumbs they might want to throw you. If you want to play the comp game for real, you should carefully decide how and where you are going to play it.

As far as tipping, this is a very personal decision. Each person should decide for himself how to handle it, and discussing it accomplishes very little.

 

[creeping panther]

Tipping

In a casino environ you do not owe the dealer jack sh##.

However if the dealer is giving me something I want, has great attitude, great attitude and hot, is a people person and pulling for the table, I bet for the dealer at those times when I think it is good. But the dealer has to be special or forget about it. Actually some dealers view me as a very good tipper, and I enjoy playing with those people.

CP

 

[ohbehave]

I tip very infrequently during the course of play. I like to tip when I color up. Understandably it makes me look like I don't tip. But its my style and I like to be able to get out without a tip if I post a losing session, it makes it more palatable to the dealer, maybe. No chips, no tips... basically.

 

[aslan]

I tip very infrequently during the course of play. I like to tip when I color up. Understandably it makes me look like I don't tip. But its my style and I like to be able to get out without a tip if I post a losing session, it makes it more palatable to the dealer, maybe. No chips, no tips... basically.

I have moved more toward your way of doing it. Sometimes, if I do especially well in the course of play, however, I will tip a bit before the final verdict is in.

Actually, some tipping is consistent with my dealer/pit/table friendly persona. To me, it seems easier to spot "heat" when the pit is nicely disposed toward me, since any heat, if it exists, seems boldfaced and underlined. If I present myself as rude or crude or otherwise offensive I can hardly discern the difference between frowns/scrutiny generated by my demeanor and frowns/scrutiny indicative of heat. For me, being accepted as the neighbor next door is an integral part of my advantage play. In truth, I am the neighbor next door. A old time con man once told me, "The truth is the best con." Con, like it or not, should be part of our overall strategy and attack on the evil empire. Our role is similar to a spy or the underground resistance; you can't walk into town wearing the enemy's uniform and firing your pistol in the air. If you do, you will soon be apprehended and tossed in the hoosegow. :cool2::eyepatch:

 

[Thunder]

So the casinos are trying to take your money and you're supposed to tip them for doing so? It's just a very effective way of having them pass on their labor costs to the customers. I very rarely tip in AC because I know that any money I do give isn't going to go to the dealer but rather it will be split up amongst all of their dealers and if they complain about it, I'll tell them straight to their face.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Agree 10,0005

i find myself tipping when i get to enjoy deeper penetration than usual.

that's what she said!

 

[gamblingghost]

that's what she said!

Did I just bump into a sex sight!? Actually, what she kept saying to me was:
"deeper,deeper,deeper" and she kept saying it louder and meaner everytime she said the word!! At this time I was wishing I was IN a casino, good or bad pene didn't matter!!:joker:

 

[Craps Master]

I don't understand how threads like this still exist in 2011. How long must it take for something like the following to sink in and become understood as canonical advantage play knowledge?

If your EV is only $20 per hour you should tip $0. You should only tip a moderate amount when winning big and betting big as part of an overall meta-cover strategy. (For the same reason you might stand on A7 vs 9).

Low stakes players spend too much time
1. Overestimating the power of their system
2. Underestimating the importance of avoiding bad games
3. Worrying about cover
4. Playing rated at too many places for comps
5. Tipping.

So...red to light green action players should
1. Realize any system that compares high to low cards will work just fine
2. Play only great games to build up bankroll and reduce risk
3. Not use ANY cover
4. Play rated only at a few places to generate mail and not worry about comps as you're not gonna get much other than mail offers
5. Don't Tip...you can't afford it.

 

[Shoofly]

I don't understand how threads like this still exist in 2011. How long does it take something like the following to sink in and become understood as canonical advantage play knowledge?

Some people have been reading these threads for a long time. Others just started last week. It's a passing parade.

 

[Craps Master]

Some people have been reading these threads for a long time. Others just started last week. It's a passing parade.

My point is that something like the above is as basic to +EV card counting as knowing how to count cards.

 

[Billy C1]

My way

I don't have a true system for tipping but this is about what I do.

1. Never (or almost never) tip when losing.
2. Dealer personality is a HUGE factor------if I like the individual and I'm up a little, I'll place small dealer bets at good counts so their chances improve too.
3. Usually will make double down and split bets for them also.
4. Find it difficult TO NOT tip a hot looking female dealer (a forever weakness) unless I'm losing badly or she's a jerk.
5. After an unusually good session I give an extra slightly bigger tip when coloring up.
The EV's I work with don't justify anything more than this but I've always felt that it's better if the dealers tend to like me at the stores I visit with more frequency. Being friendly and developing a rapport with them is a good thing!
This goes for "floor people" too. Naturally, that is easier with some than others.
Housekeeping gets anywhere from $2-$5 daily from me if I'm staying extra days and that pays off with extra towels, etc.

BillyC1

 

[moo321]

Instead of the scriptures, I'd say, go with the prevailing custom, which is, tip a little if you win. But if you feel the casinos are gaming the system by underpaying their dealers, don't tip. As one astute poster observed, there are enough ploppies out there tipping that the dealers will get enough to supplement their meager salaries. In my opinion, it is a custom in the making, and has not truly been established as a mandatory practice as of yet.

Well, I said I'm not going to argue about tipping any more, and I'm not, but rather arguing about how to interpret the scriptures. Normally, a person in a casino is there for entertainment, losing, chasing an addiction, etc. That person is doing business with the casino, where the casino provides a service, and the wages of the staff should come out of their revenue.

On the other hand, an AP is taking money from the business. You are there for profit, and the people serving you are making minimum wage or less. The house can't be saddled with the sole responsibility of paying this employee, because they're losing money to you.

And let's be realistic, if they had to pay living wages, comps would go down, table mins would go up, and crowding would be an issue. It's not a perfect system, but it is a system that benefits us.

 

[aslan]

Well, I said I'm not going to argue about tipping any more, and I'm not, but rather arguing about how to interpret the scriptures. Normally, a person in a casino is there for entertainment, losing, chasing an addiction, etc. That person is doing business with the casino, where the casino provides a service, and the wages of the staff should come out of their revenue.

On the other hand, an AP is taking money from the business. You are there for profit, and the people serving you are making minimum wage or less. The house can't be saddled with the sole responsibility of paying this employee, because they're losing money to you.

And let's be realistic, if they had to pay living wages, comps would go down, table mins would go up, and crowding would be an issue. It's not a perfect system, but it is a system that benefits us.

Nothing against you, Moo; I generally value your comments and look forward to reading them, but I'll let someone else address these ridiculous arguments.