Dice Control: Is It Cheating?

[GentleManSteve]

Dice control isn't cheating if you follow the rules of craps. By making sure the dice hit the back wall before coming to rest. If you follow that rule then then it isn't cheating. The casinos want to think of it as cheating cause they loose money but if you win a lot of money they want to throw you out but if they think you are loosing too much will they tell you that they have gotten too much of your money? That to me is cheating. If they can take our money with no remorse about telling us to stop then it should be all and good if we can do the same. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

 

[Sonny]

I've never heard anyone, including casino staff, claim that dice control is cheating. I’ve never even heard of someone being barred for dice control. I’ve heard of people getting backed off because they weren’t following the rules or because they were beating the game some other way, but not because the casino thought they were controlling the dice. Has anyone ever heard of that happening?

-Sonny-

 

[Licentia]

I've never heard anyone, including casino staff, claim that dice control is cheating. I’ve never even heard of someone being barred for dice control. I’ve heard of people getting backed off because they weren’t following the rules or because they were beating the game some other way, but not because the casino thought they were controlling the dice. Has anyone ever heard of that happening?

-Sonny-

I saw a tv show on that Dice Dominator a long time ago, and what I remember from it was that they just gave him endless grief, verbal tauntings, etc.. I don't recall him being told that he couldn't play.

To me I see no difference between counting cards and dice control. Both require effort to learn and perfect. If one is disallowed then both should be. But really, neither should be.

Licentia.

 

[GentleManSteve]

They have been people who says they have been thrown out before. Why do you think some teach you other ways of betting so as not to look as though you are using dice control? Another way of betting is to place on the come and role till you get a seven then bet on the numbers then when you hit them pull off all the money and then put some money on the come and roll till you get a 7 again then place your money on they numbers till you het one again. Keep doing this till you have enough.

Probability of 7s coming up back to back is something like 300 to 1. When you hit a seven majority of the time it takes 6 roles to hit again so just put the money on the come till a seven hits then put it on the numbers you wish to roll. Mainly the 4-6-9-8-10 all are good to place money on so you get paid if any of them hit. Majority of the time those numbers will show before another seven does.

 

[Sonny]

Probability of 7s coming up back to back is something like 300 to 1.

Are you sure it's not 35 to 1?

Mainly the 4-6-9-8-10 all are good to place money on so you get paid if any of them hit. Majority of the time those numbers will show before another seven does.

I’m afraid not. The 7 is always more likely than any other number on each roll. How else could the house pay more than 1:1 odds on the numbers and still have the edge?

-Sonny-

 

[GentleManSteve]

Are you sure it's not 35 to 1?





I’m afraid not. The 7 is always more likely than any other number on each roll. How else could the house pay more than 1:1 odds on the numbers and still have the edge?

-Sonny-

I mean back to back 7s. The chance of you rolling 2 sevens in a roll is like 300 to 1.

That is why you roll untill you get a seven on the come bet then when you hit a seven then place bets on the other ones. If you do that the chances of you getting a seven before one of those numbers come up is very unlikely. When one of those numbers come up then you take up all your money and then do the come bet again until you hit another seven. The place bets on the 4-6-8-9-10 then roll the dice till one of those numbers come up. It is very likely that you will hit one of those numbers before another seven shows.

 

[Sonny]

But the probability of rolling a 7 is the same regardless of what the last roll was. They are independent rolls. The next roll being a 7 is always a 1-in-6 chance. It is always more likely than any other number. Waiting for a 7 then betting on other numbers does not change your disadvantage at all.

I mean back to back 7s. The chance of you rolling 2 sevens in a roll is like 300 to 1.

I don’t understand what you mean by “roll.” Obviously you don’t mean a roll of the dice. You don’t mean 1 “turn” either because you cannot roll more than one 7 in a turn since the first 7 ends the turn. Can you clarify what you mean? How does a 35:1 shot turn into a 300:1 shot?

-Sonny-

 

[GentleManSteve]

I mean betting on the roller. Sorry I didn't make that clear. I mean when you bet when somebody else rolls not yourself. As soon as a 7 shows then place the betts on the 4-6-8-9-10 and one ot them should show before another 7 shows.

 

[Sonny]

As soon as a 7 shows then place the betts on the 4-6-8-9-10 and one ot them should show before another 7 shows.

So you recommend placing the 4-6-8-9-10 bets on every come out roll? But the 7 is still favored over any other number so each bet is still a bad one. Even if one of those numbers does show up before the 7, the rest of the bets still lose and you have a net loss. The house purposely underpays you on every bet to ensure that the game is not fair. You can't overcome that by waiting for a 7 to roll first. That’s like waiting for the roulette wheel to hit 3 black numbers then betting on red. The odds don’t change.

Sorry if I'm still misunderstanding your posts. I'm still trying to figure out that 300:1 statistic.

-Sonny-

 

[GentleManSteve]

So you recommend placing the 4-6-8-9-10 bets on every come out roll? But the 7 is still favored over any other number so each bet is still a bad one. Even if one of those numbers does show up before the 7, the rest of the bets still lose and you have a net loss. The house purposely underpays you on every bet to ensure that the game is not fair. You can't overcome that by waiting for a 7 to roll first. That’s like waiting for the roulette wheel to hit 3 black numbers then betting on red. The odds don’t change.

Sorry if I'm still misunderstanding your posts. I'm still trying to figure out that 300:1 statistic.

-Sonny-

Not sure. I was told when a seven is rolled it is 300 to 1 for the next role to be a seven again. Meaning if a seven is rolled it is 300 to 1 chance that another seven will show on the next roll. I got to get all of it down myself. Do not understand all the probabilities in it. But the way it was told was that if you bet on the roller after the roller after the seven is shown it is a 6 to 1 chance that that a seven will show before on of the numbers but if you wait till A seven shows then it is 300 to one 1 that it will show before one of those numbers. I am kind of hazy on it myself. Because I thought the come bets was betting that the shooter would hit the seven. I didn't think it was for a free stand on the board.

 

[Sonny]

Not sure. I was told when a seven is rolled it is 300 to 1 for the next role to be a seven again. Meaning if a seven is rolled it is 300 to 1 chance that another seven will show on the next roll.

No, that’s not right. The probability of rolling the first 7 is 1/6. The probability of rolling a second 7, given that the first roll was a 7, is still 1/6. In fact, it doesn’t matter what number(s) were rolled in the past, every roll has a 1/6 chance of being a 7. That means the probability of rolling two 7s back to back is 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/36. Even the probability of rolling three 7s in a row is only 1-in-216, which is still below the 300:1 mark. I'm not sure who told you that, but I wouldn't trust their advice on craps.

But the way it was told was that if you bet on the roller after the roller after the seven is shown it is a 6 to 1 chance that that a seven will show before on of the numbers but if you wait till A seven shows then it is 300 to one 1 that it will show before one of those numbers.

No, the probability is 1/6 (a 5:1 chance) no matter when you make your bet.

-Sonny-

 

[GentleManSteve]

OK thanks. I was thinking that it shouldn't change tactically. I was thinking that myself. If it is a six and one chance for each roll to hit a seven then the next roll should be the same.

What about the come bet. That isn't a free stand is it? I thought it was if you was betting that the roller would seven out before getting his numbers.

 

[Sonny]

What about the come bet. That isn't a free stand is it? I thought it was if you was betting that the roller would seven out before getting his numbers.

No, the come bet is the same as a pass line bet. You win with 7 or 11, lose with 2,3, or 12 and any other number establishes a point. It has the same house edge as the pass line.

-Sonny-

 

[GentleManSteve]

OK thanks. OK so it isn't if he would 7 out but to bet that it will be 7 or 11 on the roll instead of a point number?

 

[a_MASTER_pickup_artist]

Dice control is for real. You are not trying to snipe exact numbers on every roll, just like card counting is not trying to memorize every card in the deck. It only takes a little skewering of the odds to put the game in your favor. I have recorded about 4000 rolls against a practice table with regulation back wall bumpers and felt layout and my Sevens to Rolls ratio has been hovering between 6.75 to 7.0. A chi-squared test has shown that the chances that these results are due to random luck are somewhere in the range of 0.08%.

Problems for me being, the two casinos near me only have one craps table each (so they're crowded unless I go at ungodly hours of the night), and furthermore they are 14 feet long as opposed to the standard 12-foot tables, so I have to adjust to throw further (at my practice sessions I simulate shooting from the ideal position at standard size tables). However, I still intend to pursue this further, because even with my modest SRR, my edge is far greater than any counting method. Once I'm legal age to play in US casinos, it's gg noobs.

If you wish to remain skeptical, please feel free too. I have no intention of conclusively proving, or wanting anyone else to conclusively prove that this is for real, because that would make it a lot harder to slip under the radar and continue to hit casinos.

 

[moo321]

Dice control is for real. You are not trying to snipe exact numbers on every roll, just like card counting is not trying to memorize every card in the deck. It only takes a little skewering of the odds to put the game in your favor. I have recorded about 4000 rolls against a practice table with regulation back wall bumpers and felt layout and my Sevens to Rolls ratio has been hovering between 6.75 to 7.0. A chi-squared test has shown that the chances that these results are due to random luck are somewhere in the range of 0.08%.

Problems for me being, the two casinos near me only have one craps table each (so they're crowded unless I go at ungodly hours of the night), and furthermore they are 14 feet long as opposed to the standard 12-foot tables, so I have to adjust to throw further (at my practice sessions I simulate shooting from the ideal position at standard size tables). However, I still intend to pursue this further, because even with my modest SRR, my edge is far greater than any counting method. Once I'm legal age to play in US casinos, it's gg noobs.

If you wish to remain skeptical, please feel free too. I have no intention of conclusively proving, or wanting anyone else to conclusively prove that this is for real, because that would make it a lot harder to slip under the radar and continue to hit casinos.

This is all we needed. Some statistical evidence.

 

[GentleManSteve]

Dice control is for real. You are not trying to snipe exact numbers on every roll, just like card counting is not trying to memorize every card in the deck. It only takes a little skewering of the odds to put the game in your favor. I have recorded about 4000 rolls against a practice table with regulation back wall bumpers and felt layout and my Sevens to Rolls ratio has been hovering between 6.75 to 7.0. A chi-squared test has shown that the chances that these results are due to random luck are somewhere in the range of 0.08%.

Problems for me being, the two casinos near me only have one craps table each (so they're crowded unless I go at ungodly hours of the night), and furthermore they are 14 feet long as opposed to the standard 12-foot tables, so I have to adjust to throw further (at my practice sessions I simulate shooting from the ideal position at standard size tables). However, I still intend to pursue this further, because even with my modest SRR, my edge is far greater than any counting method. Once I'm legal age to play in US casinos, it's gg noobs.

If you wish to remain skeptical, please feel free too. I have no intention of conclusively proving, or wanting anyone else to conclusively prove that this is for real, because that would make it a lot harder to slip under the radar and continue to hit casinos.

Yes sometimes I can roll hard numbers like 5 times in a roll. I find it best to don't concentrate on the throw too hard. I found out that if you just let it go and do not concentrate on the throw then that is when I do better. I think I have to let my expertise of practicing take over and do not concentrate too much and just toss it. Just as when people or taking a test or are asked a question if they think too long they will second guess them self and get the answer wrong. I think it is the same way with Dice control. I think that people try to concentrate on the throw too long and they miss their throw.

I have got where I can hit the sevens lower and lower and got where I can hit the numbers I want more often.

 

[moo321]

Dice control is for real. You are not trying to snipe exact numbers on every roll, just like card counting is not trying to memorize every card in the deck. It only takes a little skewering of the odds to put the game in your favor. I have recorded about 4000 rolls against a practice table with regulation back wall bumpers and felt layout and my Sevens to Rolls ratio has been hovering between 6.75 to 7.0. A chi-squared test has shown that the chances that these results are due to random luck are somewhere in the range of 0.08%.

Problems for me being, the two casinos near me only have one craps table each (so they're crowded unless I go at ungodly hours of the night), and furthermore they are 14 feet long as opposed to the standard 12-foot tables, so I have to adjust to throw further (at my practice sessions I simulate shooting from the ideal position at standard size tables). However, I still intend to pursue this further, because even with my modest SRR, my edge is far greater than any counting method. Once I'm legal age to play in US casinos, it's gg noobs.

If you wish to remain skeptical, please feel free too. I have no intention of conclusively proving, or wanting anyone else to conclusively prove that this is for real, because that would make it a lot harder to slip under the radar and continue to hit casinos.

Are you using a standard craps table, with the alligator-teeth rubber?

 

[a_MASTER_pickup_artist]

Are you using a standard craps table, with the alligator-teeth rubber?

it's just a receiving station, basically the last foot and a half of a craps table and i toss onto it from a distance around where i would stand on a casino craps table, but yes it does have the alligator tail backwall. the wall actually does not do all that much to randomize the toss if your toss is perfectly on axis (both dice travelling together) and if they tap it lightly.

 

[moo321]

it's just a receiving station, basically the last foot and a half of a craps table and i toss onto it from a distance around where i would stand on a casino craps table, but yes it does have the alligator tail backwall. the wall actually does not do all that much to randomize the toss if your toss is perfectly on axis (both dice travelling together) and if they tap it lightly.

Hmm. Sounds pretty good. When do you turn 18?