dice control

[ChefJJ]

chef, a dealer once told me, while we were playing vp together, that you can lower the house edge using odds, is this possible? or is this just like the double down bet in vp? if it is like that, its hard to say if that lowers the house edge, because you are essentially just betting 1 bet at the regular house edge, and 1 at a 0% house edge, so is that lowering the house edge? if you look at it as money bet to money lost per hour, then yes it would lower the house edge, because you would be playing the majority of your money on the 0% bet.. for instance, in 1 hour of vp: $1000 @ -1% = -$10/hr, but $500 @ -1% + $500 @ 0% = -$5/hr.. now they arent 2 completely seperate bets tho, because if you lose the 50/50 bet, you lose your original bet, but i guess it doesnt matter since its 50/50..

Just as BjBob said, the odds bet (as related to line or come bets) is a separate bet that you can put up, add to, take from, or take down at any time once the main bet is established.

That being said, it is always a no-edge bet...meaning that it pays exactly what the odds of the dice are. There are varying ways that people look at this bet (take full odds, always take some, progress the odds, etc.), but I stick to single odds with all other shooters. Why? Because you get the most reduction against the house edge from no odds to 1x odds...from there, it's a Law of Diminishing Returns thing.

good luck

 

[Brock Windsor]

All the casinos in Biloxi charge $1 for the $40 lay. If you win, they keep $1, if you lose they keep $1, if you don't win or lose they give you the $1 back when you take the bet down. I think they increase the $1 to $2 if you increase the bet to $80 (I think).
What about $50 each?

betting $78 will cut the house edge if they only charge $1 vig. It makes the lay bet at 1.27% house edge the best bet on the table after odds bets, so it makes sense to me a DC would use this bet, but I have never met someone who I believe was a DC...though I like to believe it is possible.

 

[Brock Windsor]

Just as BjBob said, the odds bet (as related to line or come bets) is a separate bet that you can put up, add to, take from, or take down at any time once the main bet is established.

That being said, it is always a no-edge bet...meaning that it pays exactly what the odds of the dice are. There are varying ways that people look at this bet (take full odds, always take some, progress the odds, etc.), but I stick to single odds with all other shooters. Why? Because you get the most reduction against the house edge from no odds to 1x odds...from there, it's a Law of Diminishing Returns thing.

good luck

Regardless, if all other shooters are random you will lose the exact same amount of money in the long run on them per roll no matter if you use single odds, 100X odds, or no odds. Betting no odds will keep the BR swings smaller. But if a shooter is not random then betting more on odds (the most beatable bet for a DC) will help overcome the house edge on your initial line bet or come/don't bets.

 

[ChefJJ]

betting $78 will cut the house edge if they only charge $1 vig. It makes the lay bet at 1.27% house edge the best bet on the table after odds bets, so it makes sense to me a DC would use this bet, but I have never met someone who I believe was a DC...though I like to believe it is possible.

Placing the 6 & 8 in combination has a lower edge.

 

[aslan]

Placing the 6 & 8 in combination has a lower edge.

[Not actually related to this particular post (above), but to a previous one I was to lazy to find.]
I'm reading Wong on Dice. Good read. I'm a believer. I'm thinking after three or four months of practice, I'll know one way or the other. I'll be sure not to post it here, but I may drop you a PM.

 

[ChefJJ]

[Not actually related to this particular post (above), but to a previous one I was to lazy to find.]
I'm reading Wong on Dice. Good read. I'm a believer. I'm thinking after three or four months of practice, I'll know one way or the other. I'll be sure not to post it here, but I may drop you a PM.

Sounds fantastic...I'm interested to hear what's up.

good luck

 

[ChefJJ]

But if a shooter is not random then betting more on odds (the most beatable bet for a DC) will help overcome the house edge on your initial line bet or come/don't bets.

I'll even take that one step further Brock. If a player (including you as the shooter) has solid dice control skill, say, keeping dice on axis an average 1 in 3 rolls...place bets can bring a player advantage of 9-12%. There's a lot of reason to practice.

The crazy thing about the pass line (with whatever level of odds) is that there is such a huge disadvantage for the player once the point travels...worsening as the number goes from 6/8 (-9%) to 5/9(-20%) to 4/10(-33%). But as you say, a good level of control can change that.

good luck

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

ya, i guess should learn to to play craps so that i can understand what yall are talkin bout, but then again, why would i learn a game that cant be beaten? unless of course you include dice control, which i dont for 3 reasons, 1. i will never do it, 2. even if i did, you still have all the other shooters, and 3. i dont believe in it due to the fact it cant be proven to me

 

[ChefJJ]

ya, i guess should learn to to play craps so that i can understand what yall are talkin bout, but then again, why would i learn a game that cant be beaten? unless of course you include dice control, which i dont for 3 reasons, 1. i will never do it, 2. even if i did, you still have all the other shooters, and 3. i dont believe in it due to the fact it cant be proven to me

Well, there's one less person crowdin' up the dice tables

 

[rdorange]

Hot Hand Craps

JJ, I just went to your blog. The last couple of posts are real good. Some even strike home. As Garfield would say, " I resemble that!" :laugh:

I would be interested in your sorted/arranged blog. What format, pdf or something?

 

[ChefJJ]

JJ, I just went to your blog. The last couple of posts are real good. Some even strike home. As Garfield would say, " I resemble that!" :laugh:

I would be interested in your sorted/arranged blog. What format, pdf or something?

I was thinking book-style, but in a semi-formal style like the blog is...but more organized, and yes, probably .pdf.

 

[rdorange]

Count me in

Keep me posted. I'm interested and would really appreciate it.

 

[ChefJJ]

Keep me posted. I'm interested and would really appreciate it.

No problem...might be closer to January because of the holidays, work, and other good stuff going on these days. But I would like to put something like that together.

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

Well, there's one less person crowdin' up the dice tables

glad i could help!

 

[LeonShuffle]

My Two Cents:

I do not really believe it's possible... however... when I play, I attempt it. And I usually have decent length rolls; to the point where most of the times I play, the other players are passing the dice back to me. I used to practice it some while I was taking a class to learn to deal it (I dealt for just over a year) and my 7s, on average, were less than 1 in 6 or even 7 AND I hit quite a few hardways. During my last roll of actual play, I made two points of 4 and one of 10, hitting two hardway bets along the way. Still, I think it's just luck. Yet it seems to me that the best way to go about it, if you think it's possible, is to bet the don't and throw with a hardways set. Then, once you've (hopefully) made a point, throw with a sevens set. That way, you just need for it to work the on the come out roll. After that, if you're trying to throw a 7 and you DO have some influence well, there you go. If you DON'T, you're the favorite to roll one before your point anyway.

I'm really tired. Did that make any sense?

 

[Brock Windsor]

My Two Cents:

I do not really believe it's possible... however... when I play, I attempt it. And I usually have decent length rolls; to the point where most of the times I play, the other players are passing the dice back to me. I used to practice it some while I was taking a class to learn to deal it (I dealt for just over a year) and my 7s, on average, were less than 1 in 6 or even 7 AND I hit quite a few hardways. During my last roll of actual play, I made two points of 4 and one of 10, hitting two hardway bets along the way. Still, I think it's just luck. Yet it seems to me that the best way to go about it, if you think it's possible, is to bet the don't and throw with a hardways set. Then, once you've (hopefully) made a point, throw with a sevens set. That way, you just need for it to work the on the come out roll. After that, if you're trying to throw a 7 and you DO have some influence well, there you go. If you DON'T, you're the favorite to roll one before your point anyway.

I'm really tired. Did that make any sense?

Absolutely. My biggest skepticism about dice control is that all the 'pros' never recommend the best bets. A well practiced DC should be able to shoot on the dark side with max odds to play with the biggest edge possible. I understand ROR calculations effect your bet sizing and perhaps you want to keep the dice longer (though surely at $25 stakes you could find a near private table if you live in AC or LV..) but I can't understand recommending a place bet or buy bet over max odds on come or DC bets.
BW

 

[ChefJJ]

A well practiced DC should be able to shoot on the dark side with max odds to play with the biggest edge possible.

but I can't understand recommending a place bet or buy bet over max odds on come or DC bets.
BW

If you take a look at any of the sets, the most ways you can make a seven is 4...out of 16 possibilities. So, yes, you can make the Don'ts very profitable. But consider this: If you win your Don't bets, it means you have sevened-out and your turn is over. Pass the dice...of course, at an empty table it doesn't matter. It's all situational.

Not sure why the Place Bets aren't moneymakers in your eyes then, considering there are sets where you can make the 6/8 extremely profitable.

I would expand your comment to say that a well practiced DC should be able to make money off of many different bets, depending on the situation. Even the hardways can be big for a skilled player.

good luck

 

[LeonShuffle]

So I was up a bit from BJ today and figured I'd give it a go. I found an empty $25 table and bet on the Don't Pass line. I rolled a hard 8 on the comeout. A couple numbers and then the 7 to net me $25. But by this time the table was filling up and I didn't feel like waiting for my turn without betting so I played some more BJ. Then during a break a couple hours later, I spotted another empty $25 table and figured I'd try it again...

Long story short (as my Grandfather used to say), I hit 4 freaking points. First an 8 then a 9. Then when I get 4 as my point, I'm thinking, "Finally". But nope, I hit the damn 4. And then the 8 again. First time I ever bet the darkside and it comes back to bite me.

 

[Brock Windsor]

So I was up a bit from BJ today and figured I'd give it a go. I found an empty $25 table and bet on the Don't Pass line. I rolled a hard 8 on the comeout. A couple numbers and then the 7 to net me $25. But by this time the table was filling up and I didn't feel like waiting for my turn without betting so I played some more BJ. Then during a break a couple hours later, I spotted another empty $25 table and figured I'd try it again...

Long story short (as my Grandfather used to say), I hit 4 freaking points. First an 8 then a 9. Then when I get 4 as my point, I'm thinking, "Finally". But nope, I hit the damn 4. And then the 8 again. First time I ever bet the darkside and it comes back to bite me.

Usually it's the come out roll that kills. You grind yourself up $100 then 7,yo,yo,7...it's all gone.

 

[Brock Windsor]

If you take a look at any of the sets, the most ways you can make a seven is 4...out of 16 possibilities. So, yes, you can make the Don'ts very profitable. But consider this: If you win your Don't bets, it means you have sevened-out and your turn is over. Pass the dice...of course, at an empty table it doesn't matter. It's all situational.

Not sure why the Place Bets aren't moneymakers in your eyes then, considering there are sets where you can make the 6/8 extremely profitable.

I would expand your comment to say that a well practiced DC should be able to make money off of many different bets, depending on the situation. Even the hardways can be big for a skilled player.

good luck

Why place the 6&8 when you could make come bets with odds? A $5 bet with $55 odds puts $60 in action and returns $71. A $60 place bet returns $70. On top of that the come bet had an advantage on the first roll. Even if your DC skills are so spectacular the unlikelyhood of a 7 makes the come bet a bad bet you could still bet come and don't come so you're only getting wounded on a 12 and then you're getting your points at full odds.
As for making money off the hardways long term, I think the edge is just too much providing the dice have to hit the end wall. I can't imagine a respected authority like Stanford Wong would recommend hardway bets but I have not read his book.