Diplomacy and Bully Tactics with other APs in the Same Casino

[blackjack avenger]

You Learned Everything in Kindergarten

Play well with others
or
You get more with sugar then you do with salt

Probably most would just leave once they know they have stumbled upon another's game, probably for the good. However, if the established player starts acting aggressive the newcomer would probably not back down from the challenge. As a group AP's are probably male, aggressive, not afraid of authority or a challenge.

or

The established player starts to complain and the newcomer thinks he is just dealing with a boor civilian; ignores the complaining, and then doesn't pick up on the fact that the boor is an AP!

If you stumble upon another AP look to gracefully leave.

If an AP stumbles on you politely ask them to wait:
"Trying to have a run here"
"Can you wait for the shuffle"
"Can you wait a hand"
etc.

However tough anyone thinks they are, there is always someone tougher!

 

[Solo player]

If a holecarder wants your seat and you're just counting, the right thing to do is to sell your seat. You can tell him you're counting if the count's positive and sell it when the count goes down. Or if it's negative, sell it to him immediately. They have a 10% edge, so they'll be willing to pay you handsomely.

If you're at a table with another counter, don't wong in out of respect. Feel free to back-bet his hand.

If you're with a shuffle tracker (you'll notice they always ask for or even buy the cut card and intently observe the shuffle) leave, since they may cut the high count slug to the top, so you'll always have negative counts.

If a holecarder asked for my seat I would give it to him. But I would be hesitant to leave the table. Have to stick around and see what I could learn.


Guess I'm not totally sure what you mean by back-bet. But in my opinion
I think back betting another counters hand would bring a lot of undo attention to everyone at the table.

As far as a shuffle tracker again I would try to stick around and see what I could grub up.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Play well with others
or
You get more with sugar then you do with salt

You get more pussy with coke than with chloroform. Or is it the other way around? I'm never sure.

Probably most would just leave once they know they have stumbled upon another's game, probably for the good. However, if the established player starts acting aggressive the newcomer would probably not back down from the challenge. As a group AP's are probably male, aggressive, not afraid of authority or a challenge.

or

The established player starts to complain and the newcomer thinks he is just dealing with a boor civilian; ignores the complaining, and then doesn't pick up on the fact that the boor is an AP!

If you stumble upon another AP look to gracefully leave.

If an AP stumbles on you politely ask them to wait:
"Trying to have a run here"
"Can you wait for the shuffle"
"Can you wait a hand"
etc.

However tough anyone thinks they are, there is always someone tougher!

It's all situational. Whether or not I'd leave depends on what he is doing, what I am doing, and where we are. In general having another counter at the table increases your EV by increasing speed, and to a lesser extent by conserving cards in good counts while eating them in bad counts. In most of my games heat is not an issue so I'd stay unless there are other extenuating circumstances.

 

[gamblingghost]

You get more pussy with coke than with chloroform. Or is it the other way around? I'm never sure.



It's all situational. Whether or not I'd leave depends on what he is doing, what I am doing, and where we are. In general having another counter at the table increases your EV by increasing speed, and to a lesser extent by conserving cards in good counts while eating them in bad counts. In most of my games heat is not an issue so I'd stay unless there are other extenuating circumstances.

Whaaat!? Here in the midwest giving a girl a soda pop doesn't work!!:joker:

 

[Sonny]

You get more pussy with coke than with chloroform. Or is it the other way around? I'm never sure.

Same quantity, very different quality.

-Sonny-

 

[zoomie]

In over thirty years of play,I have seen only a couple of other counters. And they did not bother me.

Obviously others' experiences are different. Mine is probably explained by the fact that most of my playing time has been in Tahoe and AC, not so much Vegas.

 

[kewljason]

Same quantity, very different quality.

-Sonny-

Very good, sonny!

 

[blackchipjim]

The AP question.

I must be mistaken because unless you are on the same team or understanding another AP hurts you unless he is part of your team. For the life of me I read that a HC'er is even worse. I never sit at a table that I have ID'd with a fellow AP is activlly playing at. There are places I go and we know each other by sight and we stay away from each other's tables.

 

[Tarzan]

Far and few between

I've seen very few bonafide AP's over the years in a by chance encounter. To encounter a group of them together or others "bullying" or something resembling it on a table is unheard of to me. I've seen very few other counters and considerably fewer successful counters along the way. I've seen "bullying" and arrogance at blackjack tables quite often but it was from your typical idiot gamblers and not anyone with any common sense.

It's not like I pay that much attention to what other players are doing though. I found another counter by chance once years ago when I wonged into a table, lost every hand I played and the guy next to me says quietly during the shuffle and as I was about to leave,"Well, I'm surprised you lost because of the count blah blah blah...". As it turned out, he was an employee of another casino and used a basic hi-lo count.

Another instance was where I was watching a single deck 6:5 game going on (for amusement's sake as I won't play this game) and saw a guy that was obviously a counter, ramping his bets accordingly with the count. I thought he was insane to be playing there but I guess he liked a challenge or something? He got the crap kicked out of him. He was "the real deal" but I am mystified to this day why he would be playing such a crappy game. I have always joked to myself about maybe it was AutoMonkey since he is a wingnut wildcard guy willing to play crazy things.

It's just really hard for me to even imagine "boisterous, bullying AP's" and I've never seen such a thing over a span of quite a few years. It's far and few between where I've encountered actual AP's even! I've run into a few people that made tall claims as to their gaming poweress but talk is cheap and some people are nothing more than a legend in their own mind...

 

[socal_bj]

I hardly saw AP, let alone AP bullies. But I have seen a lot of ploppy bullies, they became mad if I don't play their way. One bully threatened to cut my hands if I hit 13, 14 again after TC stayed very negative for quite a period of time. I complained to pit boss and he told the ploppy that other players can play any way they want because it is their money to lose. The ploppy was not happy but he did not stop talking to me. He only told me the obvious BS like double my 9 against 5 or 6 etc, but did not say a word when I hit my 12 again.

Yeah... it's hard to go against the grain even when the count is so high. I split 10s against dealer 5 today when the true count was +14. Everyone got so pissed off. I lost one hand and pushed the other unfortunately (it was that kind of day). But I feel like I should never split 10s no matter what because people hate you when you do it.

 

[Albee]

Bitch slapped and kicked in the nuts? You go looking for trouble, be prepared to accept some of it back. Did he act like an ass at the table, yes. Did you trump him in the parking lot, and put yourself in harms way....yes. I would have pepper sprayed the _uck out of you and walked away laughing. Don't be stupid, there is always someone bigger than you and willing to beat your ass for kicks.

 

[alwayssplitaces]

Yeah... it's hard to go against the grain even when the count is so high. I split 10s against dealer 5 today when the true count was +14. Everyone got so pissed off. I lost one hand and pushed the other unfortunately (it was that kind of day). But I feel like I should never split 10s no matter what because people hate you when you do it.

You don't split tens if you feel heat from the casino, not to make friends with the other players. It's advantageous if the others hate you and leave the table.

One time I was playing a good DD game in Vegas heads up. 2 (relatively attractive) women sit at my table. They slowed down the game a lot by taking forever to decide what to do, whereas I instantly know what action to do on any hand. Later on, I get 2 face cards vs a 5. I ask them if they'll leave if I split tens and they say they would. The count's neutral and I had a min bet. I split 'em, got 2 stiffs, and the dealer pulled a 21, which was the best possible outcome if I wanted to piss off the ploppies. They both left and said that they don't want to play with me cause I'm the worst player they've seen (great cover for me!) I didn't go to Vegas to play blackjack with pretty girls, I went to win as much as possible and driving those ploppies away was the right thing for me to do. Because their presence would attract other ploppies to my table and then I'd have an unprofitable game and would be forced to leave. Would rather have 150 hands/hour all to myself than 30 hands/hour and those girls' phone numbers.

 

[Solo player]

You don't split tens if you feel heat from the casino, not to make friends with the other players. It's advantageous if the others hate you and leave the table.

One time I was playing a good DD game in Vegas heads up. 2 (relatively attractive) women sit at my table. They slowed down the game a lot by taking forever to decide what to do, whereas I instantly know what action to do on any hand. Later on, I get 2 face cards vs a 5. I ask them if they'll leave if I split tens and they say they would. The count's neutral and I had a min bet. I split 'em, got 2 stiffs, and the dealer pulled a 21, which was the best possible outcome if I wanted to piss off the ploppies. They both left and said that they don't want to play with me cause I'm the worst player they've seen (great cover for me!) I didn't go to Vegas to play blackjack with pretty girls, I went to win as much as possible and driving those ploppies away was the right thing for me to do. Because their presence would attract other ploppies to my table and then I'd have an unprofitable game and would be forced to leave. Would rather have 150 hands/hour all to myself than 30 hands/hour and those girls' phone numbers.

You gave up about one hours worth of +EV (2 min. bets).

 

[Gamblor]

Never seen bully tactics amongst AP, but I have used other APs to deflect heat on them, although inadvertently.

Count got good at the last half of the shoe, and another player who was backcounting wongs in. He was making about 5x min bet and I was making 10x min bet. We both killed the shoe, and colored up at the end. PC started hovering about, so I say loud enough for the PC to hear "Wow, you jumped in at the right time."

Wasn't sure he was AP at time, but as we were coloring up, we were talking about the shoe and he whispers to me "the count was all messed up at end." Was about to say, "yeah and there were still a shitload of Aces left that never came out", but I just kept quiet and played dumb.

 

[Diver]

Recently a couple of APs requested that another AP to leave his BJ table, so they could come in and play his table. This AP refused and was not too happy with the bullying tactics from the other APs.

In a separate incident, one of these same bully APs came in on my BJ table where I had been playing for 1 hour. I got up and started backcounting his play, he became flustered and quickly left my table. He and I previously agreed not to invade each other tables, but he decided to break the agreement.

Have other APs experienced or seen similar run-ins with bully APs? Any ideas on how to handle bully APs?

1. Laugh

2. Say "Oh, you mean you'd like to reserve your own table? Let's call the pit boss over and I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you what the requirements are."