Dumbest thing I've heard said at the table

[zengrifter]

This really has nothing to do with strategy just an overall consensus...

What are some of the dumbest thing you hear either the ploppies or dealers say?

Some lines that I hear on a regular basis that put people on a brain function level comprable to Terri Shiavo:

"A Push is a Win"

"It's a good idea to insure a 20 because if they dealer doesn't have blackjack chances are you win."

"Sure you won that hand by standing on 14 against a dealer 10, but now you've messed up the cards."

"Always split A's and 8's."

"Sure I lost $500 but at least I got a free buffet."

The DUMBEST thing I've heard said today is your quote that one of the dumb things people say is "Always split A's and 8's"! zg

 

[zengrifter]

I agree with you.

I never split 88 when the dealer has 9 or 10.

But I do split AA every time.

Why is this IDIOT SPAMMER still allowed here? zg

 

[hopson77]

Why is this IDIOT SPAMMER still allowed here? zg

I've wondered the same thing myself. Someone stop Ken from making piles of money playing a game and come 86 this turd burglar!

 

[ScottH]

The DUMBEST thing I've heard said today is your quote that one of the dumb things people say is "Always split A's and 8's"! zg

I was thinking the same thing...

 

[dacium]

Exactally when do you not split aces and eights? I am guessing if not DAS split once no peek them maybe you wont split eights against T, maybe. But I doupt it.

Splitting 88's isnt even close to being a yes/no.


I programmed an EV calculator today at work actually

10 6 vs 10 hit
===================================
Won: 1.869974583247E-001 (18.70%)
Push: 5.518781701081E-002 (5.52%)
Lost: 1.938253160149E-001 (19.38%)
Bust: 5.639894086496E-001 (56.40%)
===================================
Bets: 1.000000000000E+000 (100.00%)
EV: -5.708172663397E-001 (-57.082%)
===================================
2890 Possibilities computed in 0 seconds

10 6 vs 10 stand
===================================
Won: 2.116957684136E-001 (21.17%)
Lost: 7.883042315864E-001 (78.83%)
===================================
Bets: 1.000000000000E+000 (100.00%)
EV: -5.766084631729E-001 (-57.661%)
===================================
289 Possibilities computed in 0 seconds

88 vs 10 Split
===================================
Double Won: 7.310844447230E-002 (7.31%)
Won: 5.281378047122E-001 (52.81%)
Double Push: 9.750555196414E-003 (0.98%)
Push: 1.738895152491E-001 (17.39%)
Double Lost: 6.037640570304E-002 (6.04%)
Lost: 6.602235909149E-001 (66.02%)
Bust: 4.168437808492E-001 (41.68%)
===================================
Bets: 1.922330097097E+000 (192.23%)
EV: -5.234654895134E-001 (-52.347%)
===================================
99241444 Possibilities computed in 93 seconds

[this was for 6 deck S17 DAS Split Once]

Spitting those 8's is whopping 5%! Only 20 hands of 88 before you are throwing away a whole unit if you dont split.

 

[ScottH]

There might be an exception with a certain set of rules, but in geneneral you always split aces and eights.

Exactally when do you not split aces and eights? I am guessing if not DAS split once no peek them maybe you wont split eights against T, maybe. But I doupt it.

Splitting 88's isnt even close to being a yes/no.


I programmed an EV calculator today at work actually

10 6 vs 10 hit
===================================
Won: 1.869974583247E-001 (18.70%)
Push: 5.518781701081E-002 (5.52%)
Lost: 1.938253160149E-001 (19.38%)
Bust: 5.639894086496E-001 (56.40%)
===================================
Bets: 1.000000000000E+000 (100.00%)
EV: -5.708172663397E-001 (-57.082%)
===================================
2890 Possibilities computed in 0 seconds

10 6 vs 10 stand
===================================
Won: 2.116957684136E-001 (21.17%)
Lost: 7.883042315864E-001 (78.83%)
===================================
Bets: 1.000000000000E+000 (100.00%)
EV: -5.766084631729E-001 (-57.661%)
===================================
289 Possibilities computed in 0 seconds

88 vs 10 Split
===================================
Double Won: 7.310844447230E-002 (7.31%)
Won: 5.281378047122E-001 (52.81%)
Double Push: 9.750555196414E-003 (0.98%)
Push: 1.738895152491E-001 (17.39%)
Double Lost: 6.037640570304E-002 (6.04%)
Lost: 6.602235909149E-001 (66.02%)
Bust: 4.168437808492E-001 (41.68%)
===================================
Bets: 1.922330097097E+000 (192.23%)
EV: -5.234654895134E-001 (-52.347%)
===================================
99241444 Possibilities computed in 93 seconds

[this was for 6 deck S17 DAS Split Once]

Spitting those 8's is whopping 5%! Only 20 hands of 88 before you are throwing away a whole unit if you dont split.

 

[Preston]

Spitting those 8's is whopping 5%! Only 20 hands of 88 before you are throwing away a whole unit if you dont split.

I stand corrected.

Happy now?

I was more interested in seeing what the reaction to that would be if I put that in there

But I honestly do feel that there is no "always" in gambling... no matter what you play.

 

[shadroch]

As in "why would one always play BS ,especially when your gut tells you not to"?

 

[zengrifter]

Exactally when do you not split aces and eights? I am guessing if not DAS split once no peek them maybe you wont split eights against T, maybe.

Its strictly a count-related decision. zg

 

[zengrifter]

I stand corrected.

Happy now?

I was more interested in seeing what the reaction to that would be if I put that in there

But I honestly do feel that there is no "always" in gambling... no matter what you play.

FIRST OFF, you apparently don't know BASIC STRATEGY, so your opinions on BJ play are not sound/math-based. zg

 

[sagefr0g]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacium View Post
Exactally when do you not split aces and eights? I am guessing if not DAS split once no peek them maybe you wont split eights against T, maybe.

Its strictly a count-related decision. zg

right, for example 6d s17daslsr at tc>=1 88vs10 one would surrender
or 6ds17das (no surrender) at tc>=8 88vs10 stand

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[Preston]

FIRST OFF, you apparently don't know BASIC STRATEGY, so your opinions on BJ play are not sound/math-based. zg

I know BS but I know it's flawed... and I know I have a lot to learn. We'll leave it at that. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[dacium]

What do you mean flawed?

What do you think is wrong with it?

The only flaw is that it treats hands by value rather than compisition so 16 as T6 is same at 835. The difference between playing BS and playing a perfect stategy was something like 0.05% or less.

 

[Blackjacklover]

I know BS but I know it's flawed...

how is it "flawed"?

 

[Preston]

What do you mean flawed?

What do you think is wrong with it?

The only flaw is that it treats hands by value rather than compisition so 16 as T6 is same at 835. The difference between playing BS and playing a perfect stategy was something like 0.05% or less.

Exactly what I meant by flawed.

It doesn't take into account things like hand and deck composition. So as you said a 16 is a 16 no matter if it is 10 6 or 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 .

It also doesn't take into account a betting spread. But then again if you aren't counting chances are you aren't employing much of a betting spread so I guess that would be null and void.

 

[Sonny]

It doesn't take into account things like hand and deck composition. So as you said a 16 is a 16 no matter if it is 10 6 or 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 .

Actually, it takes both into account. It looks at every possible way to get 16 vs. 10 and weights the EV based on the frequency of each hand composition. Obviously a 10,6 is more likely than a 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2, so BS tends to favor the more frequent situations. It also takes into account the fact that the cards that make up the hand have been removed from the deck. You’re right that BS is not always accurate for individual situations, but overall there is no flaw in BS, only occasional exceptions to the general rules. If you want a more accurate BS you could use a composition-dependent BS or learn a few index plays.

-Sonny-

 

[sagefr0g]

Actually, it takes both into account. It looks at every possible way to get 16 vs. 10 and weights the EV based on the frequency of each hand composition. Obviously a 10,6 is more likely than a 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2, so BS tends to favor the more frequent situations. It also takes into account the fact that the cards that make up the hand have been removed from the deck. You’re right that BS is not always accurate for individual situations, but overall there is no flaw in BS, only occasional exceptions to the general rules. If you want a more accurate BS you could use a composition-dependent BS or learn a few index plays.

-Sonny-

just curious here. is there a referance to a paper on how basic strategy was created? i believe there was a couple of guys in the Army that worked it out originally, something like that.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[zengrifter]

just curious here. is there a referance to a paper on how basic strategy was created? i believe there was a couple of guys in the Army that worked it out originally, something like that.

Here's the original paper pre-Thorp. Thorp found some but not all errors, then Julien Braun at the IBM Chicago Center finished it in '66. zg

Baldwin, Roger; Cantey, Wilbert; Maisel, Herbert; and McDermott, James
"The Optimum Strategy In Blackjack (Archive copy),"
Journal of the American Statistical Association, Vol 51, 429 - 439 (1956) [pdf format; 1.1M]

 

[sagefr0g]

Here's the original paper pre-Thorp. Thorp found some but not all errors, then Julien Braun at the IBM Chicago Center finished it in '66. zg

Baldwin, Roger; Cantey, Wilbert; Maisel, Herbert; and McDermott, James
"The Optimum Strategy In Blackjack (Archive copy),"
Journal of the American Statistical Association, Vol 51, 429 - 439 (1956) [pdf format; 1.1M]

wow that was a humbling experience :joker:

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[SecurityRisk]

Its strictly a count-related decision. zg

Even for those in Europe? What about someone playing European no hole card and not counting but play basic strategy? The strategy engine here says not to spit eights against a ten or and ace and not to split aces against and ace.

I'm not in Europe and I don't play European no hole card (thankfully) but those that do, can't always split aces and eights even if their not counting.