Ever observed cheating dealers?

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

OK we all know that the new player, after sustaining a loss tends to "blame the dealer" when he drops a lot of hands in a row. Or dumps his whole bankroll in one to two shoes.

I'm not among that category. Nor quite brand new either. I did however observe a statistical rarity last night. Extreme example of negative variance. Fortunately I was minimum bidding the game and only dropped small change.

Here's what happened: i join a table with six decks and play heads up with an extremely fast dealer. A stout Latino man of about forty years old. I figure it's good practice to keep up this "mucho rapido" dealer. Well "Speedy Gonzales" is not only blindingly fast but the first fourteen out of fifteen of his up cards are ten or ace. Statistically possible but still very rare. The kind of thing that might happen once a day if i played all day long. I'm not exaggerating either like most players do "Oh well shoot the house always cheats" wasn't my thought pattern at all.

Well naturally I'm pissed and declare to the dealer: "Nothing personal pal but I'm not going to play a table where the dealer is always showing an ace or ten". I get up and leave to see how Sharon is doing with her video poker. She's on fire and making really good money for a machine played game.

Then i return thinking that at least another dealer at the six deck table will be a psychological improvement. Give me a chance of renewing a more positive attitude. Besides I'm already holding a good profit from another casino we visited earlier in the day..

Sure enough Speedy Gonzales the wicked dealer is gone. A very nice woman of about sixty or so has taken his place. We chat and hit it off well. I start winning some and quickly replenish seventy five bucks I dropped earlier.

As the night rolls on I continue to make decent profits and minimal losses and pull ahead well. At least five other dealers come and go including the nice female dealer who reversed my good fortune. However i never see "Speedy" again.

How to interpret this?

My questions:

Has anyone ever met a dishonest dealer?

If there was some cheating going on why would they attempt to fleece a first time patron who doesn't exactly looked dressed as a high roller?

Why would this man leave for the night SOON after I bitched about his constant pulling of ten and ace up cards?

Since the shoe was recently shuffled but done prior to my entrance is it possible that it could have been rigged to favor the dealer? Things like putting first card (mine) a four. Then the second third and fourth cards ten assuring a dealer twenty against a stiff fourteen?

I'm not paranoid and don't actually think it's likely this could happen in a casino on a regular basis. However we have the ingredients of:

1. Very fast dealer with exceptional skill. Easy for him to pull tricks I'm unaware of.

2. Statistically very rare issuance of high dealer up cards 14 out of the first fifteen hands.

3. Dealer leaves for the night soon after my complaint is registered.

I assume the tables are not only kept on camera but an audio recording is going on too.


In any case i will always insist upon a new shuffle whenever playing heads up. Coming into a new table alone that is. The one I played clearly was un-played as the cut card was way back and only the burn card was in the tray.

Edit: Sharon thinks they dealer was pulling a fast one. She heard me call the dealer on this matter. believes that the casino may have thought I was a gaming board plant due to my observation of the statistical rarity. So they bumped "Speedy" for the night and brought in the regular staff.

 

[shadroch]

I'm not aware of any sort of audio recording.And how do you know his shift wasn't over or he simply was on a break.
If you aren't really paranoid,you are doing a very good imitation.If you are so concerned about the deck being stacked,either spread to two hands once of just take an unexpected hit. That will screw up the sacred flow of the cards.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

I'm not aware of any sort of audio recording.And how do you know his shift wasn't over or he simply was on a break.
If you aren't really paranoid,you are doing a very good imitation.If you are so concerned about the deck being stacked,either spread to two hands once of just take an unexpected hit. That will screw up the sacred flow of the cards.

Again I'm not paranoid. I can live with the idea of it being a mere statistical variance. Rare but possible. I also made decent bread last night so I'm not "crying home to mama" so to speak. Sharon & I made cake man!.

I just want to know if there really are ways for a dealer to pull tens and aces "out of his hat" and leave the player stiff. That and if anyone else has observed these things.

And again the fact that Speedy was extremely talented, super fast, removed and never seen again.

It's not evidence to announce the game "rigged". I also intend to go back there as I like the joint and it has favorable rules.

Just won't sit with Speedy at the helm again.

 

[moo321]

You need to learn what some of the specific moves are, and how to look for those moves. It's easier to cheat in a handheld game than a shoe; usually you need a gaffed shoe to cheat. And there are almost no dealers cheating for the house in most jurisdictions; they're usually taking back chips they dumped to someone else, so their hold doesn't appear off.

 

[ihate17]

The easiest way to cheat in a shoe game

It is also easy to spot and unfortunately about twice a year I find a dealer who does this and always it is a fast dealer.

Procedure in almost every casino calls for the dealer to turn his first card and his second card becomes his hole card. If you ever see a dealer turn the second card, immediately you should put yourself on alert. Do not watch the cards hit the felt, watch his eyes when he pulls his first card from the shoe, even honest dealers will sometimes peek quickly but they will always turn that first card. If this guy then pulls the second card, you can be sure that his hole card is not an ace or 10.

So where the dealer first card should be 10-A, 5 out of 13 times, this guy selectively choosing his up card, will show a 10-A about 10 of 13 times instead. The result is you will be hitting your stiffs much more often and busting more often. Also, when he shows a low card on top, he will not have a stiff as often as an honest dealer since his hole card is not a 10.

Now you could play against this guy basing your play on his never having a 10 or ace in the hole when he turns a high card but if you have no fear about getting attention, you should call him out on it. Your other option is run.

I know of one dealer at an Indian casino in California who has done this. Now their eye should have picked it up (if they cared) but knowing he was cheating and knowing the guy working the pit was fair, I wonged into a very high count with a big bet and win my first hand. The count still high, I put another big bet out and this time he turns his second card showing a 9, so I figure he has something between 11-18. Unfortunately, I am sitting with 15 and say, "why did you turn your second card?". The guy lies and says, "we have an option of what card to turn." I ask the pit and the pit turns the dealers hole card so we can play double exposure or opt out of the hand. Since the dealer had 12, I opt out. Two hands later he is tapped out and does not return. They suspended him for a couple of weeks, but he is back now but I have not seen him selectively chose since.

All this said, most likely you just ran into a streak of big cards for the dealer, but do keep an eye open for this.

ihate17

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

It is also easy to spot and unfortunately about twice a year I find a dealer who does this and always it is a fast dealer.

Procedure in almost every casino calls for the dealer to turn his first card and his second card becomes his hole card. If you ever see a dealer turn the second card, immediately you should put yourself on alert. Do not watch the cards hit the felt, watch his eyes when he pulls his first card from the shoe, even honest dealers will sometimes peek quickly but they will always turn that first card. If this guy then pulls the second card, you can be sure that his hole card is not an ace or 10.
1.
So where the dealer first card should be 10-A, 5 out of 13 times, this guy selectively choosing his up card, will show a 10-A about 10 of 13 times instead. The result is you will be hitting your stiffs much more often and busting more often. Also, when he shows a low card on top, he will not have a stiff as often as an honest dealer since his hole card is not a 10.

Now you could play against this guy basing your play on his never having a 10 or ace in the hole when he turns a high card but if you have no fear about getting attention, you should call him out on it. Your other option is run.

I know of one dealer at an Indian casino in California who has done this. Now their eye should have picked it up (if they cared) but knowing he was cheating and knowing the guy working the pit was fair, I wonged into a very high count with a big bet and win my first hand. The count still high, I put another big bet out and this time he turns his second card showing a 9, so I figure he has something between 11-18. Unfortunately, I am sitting with 15 and say, "why did you turn your second card?". The guy lies and says, "we have an option of what card to turn." I ask the pit and the pit turns the dealers hole card so we can play double exposure or opt out of the hand. Since the dealer had 12, I opt out. Two hands later he is tapped out and does not return. They suspended him for a couple of weeks, but he is back now but I have not seen him selectively chose since.

All this said, most likely you just ran into a streak of big cards for the dealer, but do keep an eye open for this.

ihate17

Insightful post hate17. I will watch for this.

Remember: I observed some odd things happening under "Speedy" the dealer's watch and called the guy on it. At the time i wasn't suspicious of him. Just pissed at what was an apparent statistical oddity: 14 out of 15 ten or ace up cards...

And when i went back to the table under a different dealer my results were good and stayed good and consistent with only occasional minor variance (negatively) as the dealers came and went. At the end of the session I make a tidy "part timer's" profit and drive myself and "Sharon" home. A good evening all told right?

Well upon arrival at home I thought over and over about Speedy's continuous self dealing of high up cards. The matter churned in my head over and over. Always giving him the benefit of the doubt (and glad as hell i was flat betting just the five dollar minimum) I reviewed the thing.

And I'd now bet that he was a cheat.

Again the factors:

1. Extremely fast, dexterous dealer.

2. No low dealer up cards. Maybe ONE under a ten for 14 out of 15 hands. A statistical rarity found perhaps only once every ten to twenty hours of play. Not sure of the frequency but it can't run that often.

3. I called him on it not as an accusation but because I was pissed and not having any fun.

4. Dealer quickly leaves the house and doesn't return the rest of the evening.


Analysis: I'm probably not the most street wise casino card player. Thus i wasn't watching the dealer's eyes or hands. It was my statistical analysis and bad turn of continuous low wager losses (thank GOD they were low) that made me leave the table.

Conclusion?

He was a cheater. I just didn't know it at the time. Was simply too fast for his own good. Either he or the pit critters decided not to risk a gaming inquest due to a patrons (me) complaint or my being a "plant" from the authorities.

By vocally complaining, (may have raised my voice enough to get another staffers attention) I unintentionally got "Speedy Gonzales' sent home for the evening. The pit boss and the dealer may have realized i wasn't a drunk or a dummy and responded by discontinuing their scam.

My friend Sharon mentioned just last night that this particular casino had some gaming board problems.

And there is ONE more detail I'm leaving out of my response that would near conclusively prove the guy was a cheat. It's part of your (Ihate17's) reply that would too narrowly identify some dealer or condition. I guess that probably answers the question by itself.

Thank you Ihate17. Your analysis was flawless and of great value to the rest of us. Hopefully a few of the gallery reading will learn from your wisdom and not get caught with pants down betting sixty unit spreads against an a-hole like this guy.



Footnote: Had this dealer been "smart" he'd have let me win or tread water through half the shoe. THEN beat the schit out of me with his down/up card routine when I would have been playing six to ten units.

I was just lucky the man was merely crafty, not smart...

 

[shadroch]

My conclusion- you are indeed paranoid. You are suggesting now that the house was in it with the dealer,and sent him home when you discovered him cheating you on a five dollar table.

 

[MAZ]

My conclusion- you are indeed paranoid. You are suggesting now that the house was in it with the dealer,and sent him home when you discovered him cheating you on a five dollar table.

It makes for better reading that way. Of course its feasible that a casino would risk tens of thousands of dollars in gaming commision fines, possible jail time for key personnel, and public scrutiny and bad publicity, for the reward of trying to fix a game already legally adjusted in their favor. BRILLIANT!

 

[moo321]

It makes for better reading that way. Of course its feasible that a casino would risk tens of thousands of dollars in gaming commision fines, possible jail time for key personnel, and public scrutiny and bad publicity, for the reward of trying to fix a game already legally adjusted in their favor. BRILLIANT!

Well, hang on a second. We need to know what jurisdiction this was in. There are places where this is entirely possible.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

My conclusion- you are indeed paranoid. You are suggesting now that the house was in it with the dealer,and sent him home when you discovered him cheating you on a five dollar table.

And you're suggesting that 14 out of 15 ten or higher up cards IN A ROW is a reasonable possibility? Now that sounds ten times more tin foil hat than the concept of him being a cheat.

Ihate17 hit it: I'm convinced that the guy was flim flam.

 

[MAZ]

And you're suggesting that 14 out of 15 ten or higher up cards IN A ROW is a reasonable possibility? Now that sounds ten times more tin foil hat than the concept of him being a cheat.

Ihate17 hit it: I'm convinced that the guy was flim flam.

Oh please, put your casino cheating theory in the zen zone. Nobodys trying to steal your 5 dollars when there are hundreds just throwing money away. Casinos are the legal version of a street shell game. They are already legally cheating you by having the game rigged in their favor. Put this in perspective and then see how stupid it sounds. I thought you were a smart thinking democrat, start acting like one.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Oh please, put your casino cheating theory in the zen zone. Nobodys trying to steal your 5 dollars when there are hundreds just throwing money away. Casinos are the legal version of a street shell game. They are already legally cheating you by having the game rigged in their favor. Put this in perspective and then see how stupid it sounds. I thought you were a smart thinking democrat, start acting like one.

Personal attacks on the main forum? Fine example to set for the site.

Here we have an informative discussion going on with some back and forth of matters that COULD affect other players.

Whether or not the dealer on my nickel and dime game was playing with sleight of hand or not the issue still deserves discussion. For all i know the guy may have merely been practicing his trade on me.

Wait until you (or someone else here) puts a high bet on a table and the dealer shifts the up card to the higher number. See how you like it then.

In the meantime grow up and show some bloody manners.

 

[MAZ]

Personal attacks on the main forum? Fine example to set for the site.

Here we have an informative discussion going on with some back and forth of matters that COULD affect other players.

Whether or not the dealer on my nickel and dime game was playing with sleight of hand or not the issue still deserves discussion. For all i know the guy may have merely been practicing his trade on me.

Wait until you (or someone else here) puts a high bet on a table and the dealer shifts the up card to the higher number. See how you like it then.

In the meantime grow up and show some bloody manners.

Easy there Irish. This is no personal attack this is my personal opinion. And I am entitled to it. Its thought out and articulated as such. I have no beef with you so lighten up Francis. And the last comment I made in my previous thread was basically commending you on your wise choice of political stance.

 

[21forme]

I thought you were a smart thinking democrat


Now there's an oxymoron.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Easy there Irish. This is no personal attack this is my personal opinion. And I am entitled to it. Its thought out and articulated as such. I have no beef with you so lighten up Francis. And the last comment I made in my previous thread was basically commending you on your wise choice of political stance.

Ha ha ha.

Well it goes to show, Ye got me Irish up. But i respect you.

Take note: I still believe this topic has some distinct merit. What is there to stop a dealer from pulling a fast one on any player? A set of rules and cameras maybe. However are these video recordings stored, chronicled, categorized? Subject to tampering? What good are they even if subpoenaed in court? If the local or state gaming authorities even stick their neck out for the players?

Probably the answer is yes and no. And someone mentioned that Indian lands aren't subject to the same legal scrutiny. like the slot payoffs some Southwestern joint stiffed a gambler.

What is there to stop them? Isn't there a gray line where the BEST dealers can straddle?

Despite my card tracking i was merely an innocent onlooker. A person not all that familiar with sleight of hand. Like most people card tricks fool me. I know there's no 'magic" it's just a crafty illusion.

Thus i state emphatically that I believe it was very likely that dealer was at least practicing his tricks on me. I indicated disappointment at the time (may have raised my voice a little) but made no accusation. Because at that time I just thought it was an extreme example of negative variance on a day where I'd been playing and winning well anyway. Nearly fleecing two casinos earlier in the day (by my standards anyway) So who gives a fig?

But fourteen out of fifteen hands with dealer showing ten or ace up cards?

An incredibly fast dealer. Far quicker than the rest of the crew. As fast as I've ever seen?

And "Speedy" leaves for the night near immediately after the discussion of the odd and stunning consecutive bad luck episodes?

I'm telling you even if this was just a case of extremely negative variance I'm keeping an eye out for these overly slick dealers from now on. Maybe just to avoid the really rapid ones. Anyone THAT good is capable of tricks i don't want to be the victim of...

 

[bigjimswoman]

Yes, I called a dealer on the way he was dealing cards and it was also a forgein dealer. He just open kept my card and proceeeded to deal me another card. I was playing the third seat and he dealt a 7, 8, A and then dealt a 3, 2 and kept my card. The table started raising hell and the pit boss asked if we wanted scrap the hand or I could take the card the dealer had, I took the card and sure 'nuff it was a ten. This dealer was quickly replaced. This took place in Fiztgerald's in Vegas.

Then I was playing at head's up in Vegas at Bally's and the dealer gave me my card, took his card face down, gave me a card and turned the next card face down and turned over his first card, he did it so fast. Can't remember what I had, but he had a ten and I hit and busted. He had like a 16 and if had saw it, of course I would not have hit. I sent a terse e-mail to Harrah's and they gave me 1000 reward points. My point is I do not cheat and I will be damned if a dealer is going to cheat me. :whip:

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Yes, I called a dealer on the way he was dealing cards and it was also a forgein dealer. He just open kept my card and proceeeded to deal me another card. I was playing the third seat and he dealt a 7, 8, A and then dealt a 3, 2 and kept my card. The table started raising hell and the pit boss asked if we wanted scrap the hand or I could take the card the dealer had, I took the card and sure 'nuff it was a ten. This dealer was quickly replaced. This took place in Fiztgerald's in Vegas.

Then I was playing at head's up in Vegas at Bally's and the dealer gave me my card, took his card face down, gave me a card and turned the next card face down and turned over his first card, he did it so fast. Can't remember what I had, but he had a ten and I hit and busted. He had like a 16 and if had saw it, of course I would not have hit. I sent a terse e-mail to Harrah's and they gave me 1000 reward points. My point is I do not cheat and I will be damned if a dealer is going to cheat me. :whip:

This stuff is new to me as I've only got maybe four hundred hours of table play experience under my belt. I'm makin money but don't known the scams. Until today or last night i thought all places were honest. I still think that cheaters are the exception but am gonna keep an eye out for them. That and watch that dealer's eyes and up card vs. hole.

I'm still trying to figure the reasoning behind the dealer taking the risk of cheating (assuming he was and that's a fair assumption in my book).

Either he's F'ing with the table because he's wicked.

Getting a cut of the profits.

Or under orders to cheat.

I'm thinking we take the power of gaming boards and commissions overly serious. There's too much room for sleaze and mischief. This isn't the day and age where the consumer has much clout in the corporate or casino world. Not when the tribes are stiffing seven figure slot players and the casino owns the cameras.

And no advantage player is really in a position to challenge the system besides getting up and leaving or making a mild complaint. Who here wants that kind of attention?

We can't even picket places that boast "Generous 6 to 5 blackjack pay outs". Although it might be a good idea for some of our elder statesmen here to do this. Either that or hire some out of work flunkies to picket the joints for us in proxy.

"Local 11/10 Protests casinos Playing 6"5 Game! Sign ballot petition to end the deceptive games".

Not a bad idea actually. Neatly printed flyers could be given out to vacationing gamblers suggesting they choose the more favored casinos which pay good naturals.

Granted it's not like we're the "Brotherhood Of Teamsters" here.

 

[glovesetc]

very simple solution

get up and change tables and if not just leave the casino - vwery easy . If you want to be a casino favorite - accuse the dealer of cheating to the pit boss - the table is immediately suspended play and the gaming commission comes over and takes all statements from everyone there and you wait till everyone is done as well and then you may also have to explain why you think he was cheating if another player does not or more backs your version . They will not risk the bad press , the integrity of the casino , the HUGE fines , and the sanctions eother . That is like saying Wynn properties cheats so they can build the $ 5,000,000,000.00 casino in A.C. next to the borgata which they also just broke ground on . Yep that pile of dirt next to the Borgata is where it is going .Casinos do not have to cheat casue of the massive flow of money that they go through. All they need is a net 1% to make stockholders very happy . Do the math if $30,000,000.00 cash is spent in a hotel including parking , hotel , room service , slots , table games , bars , restaurants ,gift shops , etc etc . One per cent net after everything is $300,000.00 a day in the bank account and that is a fair days work anywhere . I also agree with shad that $5 and !) tables are a more patron convenience then anything else. Question a PP and they will tell you those are the worst pits to work in cause of the boredom . well this is way too long anyhow . :grin: :cool2:

 

[shadroch]

The dealer got a ten or an ace 14 out of 15 hands so he must be cheating.

On a normal distribution of hands,the dealer gets a ten or an ace 5 out of 13 hands,so lets call 6 out of 15 normal. 14 of 15 is 8 hands out of the expected range.
Is 14 out of 15 rare? Yes,but how would you even know when to start counting such a streak? Or was it after you detected a pattern you thought back to when it started?
Is 14 T or As out of 15 rarer than losing 17 hands in a row? I've done that. I've also won 12 hands in a row.I once won about seven hands in a row starting with 12-16 against a picture card. How rare is that? Someone here lost twentsomething in a row and got 4 naturals in a row. The chances of that happening are much greater than your observed streak.
But in your scenerio,not only is the dealer cheating you,but the pit and the casino are complicit and covering for him.So you believe the casino encourages their dealers to cheat. But you continue to play there,even though they condone and cover up for their dishonest dealers.
As you are convinced the casino is dishonest,why not tell us which one so we can avoid it,even as you continue to play there.

 

[ihate17]

If he was actually cheating, I agree with Shadroch

My conclusion- you are indeed paranoid. You are suggesting now that the house was in it with the dealer,and sent him home when you discovered him cheating you on a five dollar table.

The next question our Irishman friend needs to ask himself is, why would this dealer be cheating low roller players?
I do not think the sleeziest of casinos will cheat you on a $5 table. Face it, they make a lot of money without cheating, if for no other reason, it is not worth it.
The casino would fire the guy or at least suspend him as they did in my example of an actual cheat. I am not convinced at all that yours was a cheat. Need to be there.
In the world of casino game management, there are really only two answers to this question.
1. The dealer must have been cheating earlier with a partner and now is trying to bring his win level up to where it should be. But, if that is true, it would probably be done on a larger stake table. A casino suspecting this will review earlier tables this guy dealt on and if they find nothing, will do nothing but watch his tables very closely in the future, because he will most likely do it again.
2. The dealer is a pissed at the players, burned out and either needs to find employment in another field or some time away to rethink his attitude.

The fact that 14 of 15 hands were aces or faces is not conclusive. Just played with a dealer who had a streak similar to that, even had 5 of 6 hands with an ace on top (one blackjack), but when that streak ended, his up cards were pretty normal.

So, I gave you a common method of cheating at a shoe, be aware of it, but since you were not aware at the time this happened, do not be so sure that this is what happened. I put in between aprrox 400 hours per year and only see it about twice a year.

ihate17