Ever observed cheating dealers?

[shadroch]

Since ihate17 irst posted this method of cheating,
I've been on the lookout for it and have yet to find it in well over 100 hours,so its not common by any means.

 

[ihate17]

Wow! You must play fast.

Since ihate17 irst posted this method of cheating,
I've been on the lookout for it and have yet to find it in well over 100 hours,so its not common by any means.

Shadroch, I thought I posted this about 10 hours ago, you must be one fast player?
Anyway, like I said, I see it about twice a year in 400 hours (I play slower than you) and it is easy to see.

Here is a little more for whatever it may be worth.
I have never seen a new dealer do this.
I have never seen a young dealer do this.
I have never seen a female dealer do this.
I have never seen any kind of ethnic type dealer do this
I have only seen middle aged white male dealers do this.

ihate17

 

[shadroch]

You posted this several months ago,didn't you? It was in an Indian Casino.Perhaps it was posted on another board,but I'm pretty sure it was you that posted it.

 

[InPlay]

OK we all know that the new player, after sustaining a loss tends to "blame the dealer" when he drops a lot of hands in a row. Or dumps his whole bankroll in one to two shoes.

I'm not among that category. Nor quite brand new either. I did however observe a statistical rarity last night. Extreme example of negative variance. Fortunately I was minimum bidding the game and only dropped small change.

Here's what happened: i join a table with six decks and play heads up with an extremely fast dealer. A stout Latino man of about forty years old. I figure it's good practice to keep up this "mucho rapido" dealer. Well "Speedy Gonzales" is not only blindingly fast but the first fourteen out of fifteen of his up cards are ten or ace. Statistically possible but still very rare. The kind of thing that might happen once a day if i played all day long. I'm not exaggerating either like most players do "Oh well shoot the house always cheats" wasn't my thought pattern at all.

Well naturally I'm pissed and declare to the dealer: "Nothing personal pal but I'm not going to play a table where the dealer is always showing an ace or ten". I get up and leave to see how Sharon is doing with her video poker. She's on fire and making really good money for a machine played game.

Then i return thinking that at least another dealer at the six deck table will be a psychological improvement. Give me a chance of renewing a more positive attitude. Besides I'm already holding a good profit from another casino we visited earlier in the day..

Sure enough Speedy Gonzales the wicked dealer is gone. A very nice woman of about sixty or so has taken his place. We chat and hit it off well. I start winning some and quickly replenish seventy five bucks I dropped earlier.

As the night rolls on I continue to make decent profits and minimal losses and pull ahead well. At least five other dealers come and go including the nice female dealer who reversed my good fortune. However i never see "Speedy" again.

How to interpret this?

My questions:

Has anyone ever met a dishonest dealer?

If there was some cheating going on why would they attempt to fleece a first time patron who doesn't exactly looked dressed as a high roller?

Why would this man leave for the night SOON after I bitched about his constant pulling of ten and ace up cards?

Since the shoe was recently shuffled but done prior to my entrance is it possible that it could have been rigged to favor the dealer? Things like putting first card (mine) a four. Then the second third and fourth cards ten assuring a dealer twenty against a stiff fourteen?

I'm not paranoid and don't actually think it's likely this could happen in a casino on a regular basis. However we have the ingredients of:

1. Very fast dealer with exceptional skill. Easy for him to pull tricks I'm unaware of.

2. Statistically very rare issuance of high dealer up cards 14 out of the first fifteen hands.

3. Dealer leaves for the night soon after my complaint is registered.

I assume the tables are not only kept on camera but an audio recording is going on too.


In any case i will always insist upon a new shuffle whenever playing heads up. Coming into a new table alone that is. The one I played clearly was un-played as the cut card was way back and only the burn card was in the tray.

Edit: Sharon thinks they dealer was pulling a fast one. She heard me call the dealer on this matter. believes that the casino may have thought I was a gaming board plant due to my observation of the statistical rarity. So they bumped "Speedy" for the night and brought in the regular staff.

I have sat at a table where the dealer lost the first 16 hands out of the shoe. He busted every hand. One hand after another have never seen nothing like it before. So you can see it can go both ways. It also was a $100 min table not $5 dollars. It was a 6 deck shoe with 2 players. How sweet it was !

 

[ihate17]

Yes I did

You posted this several months ago,didn't you? It was in an Indian Casino.Perhaps it was posted on another board,but I'm pretty sure it was you that posted it.

Here I thought you were some amazing player, able to play faster than time. Sadly disappointed here, but yes I did post something but I think it was about a different casino where my niece spotted this same thing.

ihate17

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

The dealer got a ten or an ace 14 out of 15 hands so he must be cheating.

On a normal distribution of hands,the dealer gets a ten or an ace 5 out of 13 hands,so lets call 6 out of 15 normal. 14 of 15 is 8 hands out of the expected range.
Is 14 out of 15 rare? Yes,but how would you even know when to start counting such a streak? Or was it after you detected a pattern you thought back to when it started?
Is 14 T or As out of 15 rarer than losing 17 hands in a row? I've done that. I've also won 12 hands in a row.I once won about seven hands in a row starting with 12-16 against a picture card. How rare is that? Someone here lost twentsomething in a row and got 4 naturals in a row. The chances of that happening are much greater than your observed streak.
But in your scenerio,not only is the dealer cheating you,but the pit and the casino are complicit and covering for him.So you believe the casino encourages their dealers to cheat. But you continue to play there,even though they condone and cover up for their dishonest dealers.
As you are convinced the casino is dishonest,why not tell us which one so we can avoid it,even as you continue to play there.

I'm fairly certain that the dealer was cheating. Can't prove it but the stats are very suspicious to me. I don't know if the pit crew was complicit as the other dealers were all "tame". Plus none were anywhere near as friggin fast as this Speedy Gonzales dude. So the crew was probably OK. The dealer (if he was cheating) was an independent contractor. Maybe that's how he gets his kicks. i don't know.

So if the guy was a snake in the grass the pit may have actually removed him from play after my strongly worded complaint. My statement was likely overheard. I also mentioned it to the next dealer and so on.

I know that "Speedy" got the 14 out of 15 high up cards from both the experience and hitting at least half my hands and going bust. Was detectable in the chip loss as well. The dunking included fifteen straight losses not counting pushes. However my primary evidence was that I NOTICED the unusual trend and continued flat betting the min a bit until thoroughly disgusted. A small price to pay to learn a BIG lesson.

If approached through private message I would likely provide the name of the joint.

At this point though my guess is that the crew is largely legit.

 

[aslan]

I had an experience at Harrah's that made me uneasy. They brought in a dealer who was lightning fast, had too much hand movement in the way he dispensed cards, held the cards up high and in ways that I know peeking at the top or bottom card was possible (because of the ways he was tilting the cards), held the cards in what I would term the "mechanics grip", chattered a lot like a con artist, but in the final analysis, I don't think he did anything. It could be that some dealers are card mechanics in their private lives, and carry some of their style into the dealer's job. Also, it could be that some dealers might freelance on their own just because they can. I felt he could have done something if he wanted. I don't think the house wanted him to do anything dishonest, but a particular pit boss could I guess have someone like him on staff to keep his numbers high. It would be stupid, and I know such a reputable casino would fire him in a heartbeat if they suspected him of anything. Still, it made me very uneasy playing against him. I did win that night so I assume I was not cheated.

 

[shadroch]

I had an experience at Harrah's that made me uneasy. They brought in a dealer who was lightning fast, had too much hand movement in the way he dispensed cards, held the cards up high and in ways that I know peeking at the top or bottom card was possible (because of the ways he was tilting the cards), held the cards in what I would term the "mechanics grip", chattered a lot like a con artist, but in the final analysis, I don't think he did anything. It could be that some dealers are card mechanics in their private lives, and carry some of their style into the dealer's job. Also, it could be that some dealers might freelance on their own just because they can. I felt he could have done something if he wanted. I don't think the house wanted him to do anything dishonest, but a particular pit boss could I guess have someone like him on staff to keep his numbers high. It would be stupid, and I know such a reputable casino would fire him in a heartbeat if they suspected him of anything. Still, it made me very uneasy playing against him. I did win that night so I assume I was not cheated.

What game was this? Where do they have hand held games at a Harrahs?
AC? Vegas?

 

[InPlay]

What game was this? Where do they have hand held games at a Harrahs?


AC? Vegas?

Double deck games at Harrahs LV.

 

[aslan]

What game was this? Where do they have hand held games at a Harrahs?
AC? Vegas?

Vegas. DD. I found out later it is a lousy game--no double down after splitting. Ignorance is bliss. I won $500 or so as I remember.

 

[EasyRhino]

Since ihate17 irst posted this method of cheating,
I've been on the lookout for it and have yet to find it in well over 100 hours,so its not common by any means.

Yeah, I actually had one false alarm where I thought I saw this happening. A dealer, when playing heads-up, would cut corners and flip over the hole card inconsistently. I got a pick panicky at first, but then realized that the first card was always being displayed as the upcard, so it didn't really affect anything.

 

[Tarzan]

Laughlin Layaway

There is a manuver on the part of a dealer in a hand-dealt game called the "Laughlin Layaway" in which the dealer can pick whether he takes the first card on top or the 2nd card in, with obvious disastrous overall results and spiked advantage over the player. It gots it's name from the locality of this little trick's origin geographically, I would imagine. It's hard to pick up on unless you are looking for it and watching specifically for them to be doing this but it goes with what others have noted about watching the dealer's eyes at certain points and all that. If performed flawlessly against players not specifically looking for this being done they can supposedly get away with this "all week long 'til tuesday" from what I hear!
Imagine a dealer that can peek at the first card and opt to take the 2nd card down if the first one is a low card---This is done by sliding the top card off just enough to peek at it while taking care of bets at the end of a hand and holding the cards in the left hand. The dealer then knows what the top card is and takes it from there...since the top card is slid off somewhat he takes the next card down leaving the top card in place, giving it to some unlucky recipient! Heads up single deck you are dead meat!!!!!
I saw a video of this being done by an expert and WOW it's hard to catch! Do casinos do this THESE days? Who knows....maybe, maybe not...against that big bettor that has lots of the casino's chips--Bring in "the mechanic" to whack them for all it's worth? If the player can't catch it the casino commission people SURELY won't either. The casino's also keep places like Laughlin, Nevada afloat and on the map! Makes sense to turn a blind eye to such a practice if the casino has you in their pocket, also. I've heard stories of "less than reputable" practices on the part of casinos..........

 

[moo321]

There is a manuver on the part of a dealer in a hand-dealt game called the "Laughlin Layaway" in which the dealer can pick whether he takes the first card on top or the 2nd card in, with obvious disastrous overall results and spiked advantage over the player. It gots it's name from the locality of this little trick's origin geographically, I would imagine. It's hard to pick up on unless you are looking for it and watching specifically for them to be doing this but it goes with what others have noted about watching the dealer's eyes at certain points and all that. If performed flawlessly against players not specifically looking for this being done they can supposedly get away with this "all week long 'til tuesday" from what I hear!
Imagine a dealer that can peek at the first card and opt to take the 2nd card down if the first one is a low card---This is done by sliding the top card off just enough to peek at it while taking care of bets at the end of a hand and holding the cards in the left hand. The dealer then knows what the top card is and takes it from there...since the top card is slid off somewhat he takes the next card down leaving the top card in place, giving it to some unlucky recipient!
I saw a video of this being done by an expert and WOW it's hard to catch! Do casinos do this THESE days? Who knows....maybe, maybe not...against that big bettor that has lots of the casino's chips--Bring in "the mechanic" to whack them for all it's worth? If the player can't catch it the casino commission people SURELY won't either. The casino's also keep places like Laughlin, Nevada afloat and on the map! Makes sense to turn a blind eye to such a practice if the casino has you in their pocket, also. I've heard stories of "less than reputable" practices on the part of casinos..........

You're certainly right that you won't actually catch the move of a skilled mechanic. You'll only see evidence; marked cards, dealer's eyes move around, strange sound from the deck, strange way of dealing or holding the cards, strange results (least reliable, of course).

 

[glovesetc]

maybe small casinos

but large casinos do need to cheat - they have suckers , ploppies, people with limited BK's, vacationers and most of all the massive cash flow that helps them . :grin: :cool2:

 

[k_c]

Strategy if dealer deals up card preferentially

There is a manuver on the part of a dealer in a hand-dealt game called the "Laughlin Layaway" in which the dealer can pick whether he takes the first card on top or the 2nd card in, with obvious disastrous overall results and spiked advantage over the player. It gots it's name from the locality of this little trick's origin geographically, I would imagine. It's hard to pick up on unless you are looking for it and watching specifically for them to be doing this but it goes with what others have noted about watching the dealer's eyes at certain points and all that. If performed flawlessly against players not specifically looking for this being done they can supposedly get away with this "all week long 'til tuesday" from what I hear!
Imagine a dealer that can peek at the first card and opt to take the 2nd card down if the first one is a low card---This is done by sliding the top card off just enough to peek at it while taking care of bets at the end of a hand and holding the cards in the left hand. The dealer then knows what the top card is and takes it from there...since the top card is slid off somewhat he takes the next card down leaving the top card in place, giving it to some unlucky recipient! Heads up single deck you are dead meat!!!!!
I saw a video of this being done by an expert and WOW it's hard to catch! Do casinos do this THESE days? Who knows....maybe, maybe not...against that big bettor that has lots of the casino's chips--Bring in "the mechanic" to whack them for all it's worth? If the player can't catch it the casino commission people SURELY won't either. The casino's also keep places like Laughlin, Nevada afloat and on the map! Makes sense to turn a blind eye to such a practice if the casino has you in their pocket, also. I've heard stories of "less than reputable" practices on the part of casinos..........

That question came up on advantageplayer.com. It was suggested that knowing addtional information about dealer's hole card might be an advantage play. If the dealer's first card is an ace or ten, that is his up card. In that case, the hole card is assumed to be random and the hand is played normally. If his first card is not flipped up, the up card will be the second card whatever that is. In that case the up card is random but it is now known his hole card is not an ace or ten. The strategy I came up with is:

Strategy when it is known that dealer's hole card is not an ace or ten
Up card  HSN  SSN  Hard Doubles  Soft Doubles       Splits                Surrender            
   2     14   18   11,10         None               1,7,8                 None
   3     14   18   11,10         None               1,7,8,9DAS            None
   4     14   18   11,10         None               1,7,8,9DAS            None
   5     13   18   11,10         None               1,2DAS,6DAS,7,8,9DAS  None
   6     12   18   11,10,9       18,17              1,2DAS,3DAS,6,7,8,9   None
   7     12   18   11,10,9       18,17,16,15,14,13  1,2,3,4DAS,6,7,8,9    None
   8     13   18   11,10,9       18,17,16,15,14     1,2,3,6,7,8,9         None
   9     14   18   11,10,9       18,17,16           1,2,3,6,7,8,9         None
   T     14   18   11,10,9       18,17              1,2,3,6DAS,7,8        None
   A     17   19   11(H17)       None               1,8                   16,15(H17),8-8(H17)

Assume dealer preferentially selects up cards as follows:
     If his first card is an ace or ten, that is his up card. In this case, his hole card
     is assumed to be random and the hand should be played normally.

     If his first card is not an ace or ten, that is his hole card. In this case, his up
     card is random, but it is now known that his hole card is not an ace or ten. For this
     case, use above strategy.

Approx EV S17, DOA, SPL1, NS           
1 deck          NDAS -0.46%  DAS -0.37%
6 decks         NDAS -0.83%  DAS -0.74%

This won't make playing against such a dealer better than playing a normal game , but I'm sure it is much better than getting completely fleeced by playing normally.
Forgot to mention, the source of the figures is from my own program.

k_c

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

There is a manuver on the part of a dealer in a hand-dealt game called the "Laughlin Layaway" in which the dealer can pick whether he takes the first card on top or the 2nd card in, with obvious disastrous overall results and spiked advantage over the player. It gots it's name from the locality of this little trick's origin geographically, I would imagine. It's hard to pick up on unless you are looking for it and watching specifically for them to be doing this but it goes with what others have noted about watching the dealer's eyes at certain points and all that. If performed flawlessly against players not specifically looking for this being done they can supposedly get away with this "all week long 'til tuesday" from what I hear!
Imagine a dealer that can peek at the first card and opt to take the 2nd card down if the first one is a low card---This is done by sliding the top card off just enough to peek at it while taking care of bets at the end of a hand and holding the cards in the left hand. The dealer then knows what the top card is and takes it from there...since the top card is slid off somewhat he takes the next card down leaving the top card in place, giving it to some unlucky recipient! Heads up single deck you are dead meat!!!!!
I saw a video of this being done by an expert and WOW it's hard to catch! Do casinos do this THESE days? Who knows....maybe, maybe not...against that big bettor that has lots of the casino's chips--Bring in "the mechanic" to whack them for all it's worth? If the player can't catch it the casino commission people SURELY won't either. The casino's also keep places like Laughlin, Nevada afloat and on the map! Makes sense to turn a blind eye to such a practice if the casino has you in their pocket, also. I've heard stories of "less than reputable" practices on the part of casinos..........

It's simply a card trick where the illusion is everything. In the 400 or so hours I've played at real tables it always seems that i do worse with a really fast dealer than a medium one. My counting is quick enough although the very fastest of dealers make it a slight strain.

But unless the guy is trustworthy why allow oneself to be exposed to the hole card/up card trick? And even if the very speedy dealer is honest through the minimum bets who's to say he doesn't use sleight of hand when you move up to black chips?

I'm guessing that it's more common than we think. Besides, who owns the cameras? The casino does. It would take a court order to subpoena the video records. You and I don't want that kind of exposure.

Solution? I will watch his eyes if too fast. Then move to another table. Anyone who is that quick has developed other skills too.

In short: You can't really trust many people. Especially strangers in casinos.

 

[MAZ]

I can't believe this is still being talked about. I will try to put this in the most gentle way possible. QUIT F**KING WORRYING ABOUT CHEATING DEALERS, AND START WORRYING ABOUT HOW TO REALLY PLAY! First off as an AP you must realize the faster the dealer the better. More hands equals more money potential. If you can't keep up, get the hell out of the casino until you can. You'll save more money that way instead of looking for shifty eyed dealers to avoid.

Next, realize that most dealers are not that good. There are far more dealers out there that will make errors in your favor then there are dealers skilled enough to rip you off. Any of these clods that make an error against you, well its up to you to catch that. If you don't, then again get the hell out of the casino until you know what you are doing. I will conceed that there must be a cheating dealer out there somewhere, but I would not be considered an AP if the dealer errors in my favor wouldn't at least offset the miniscule percentage of dealer cheats. You can't be afraid to play this game, and don't let bad variance keep you up at night with nightmares of the boogyman, or in this case cheating dealers. Now quit your cryin and put you friggin helmet on and get in the game.

 

[InPlay]

I can't believe this is still being talked about. I will try to put this in the most gentle way possible. QUIT F**KING WORRYING ABOUT CHEATING DEALERS, AND START WORRYING ABOUT HOW TO REALLY PLAY! First off as an AP you must realize the faster the dealer the better. More hands equals more money potential. If you can't keep up, get the hell out of the casino until you can. You'll save more money that way instead of looking for shifty eyed dealers to avoid.

Next, realize that most dealers are not that good. There are far more dealers out there that will make errors in your favor then there are dealers skilled enough to rip you off. Any of these clods that make an error against you, well its up to you to catch that. If you don't, then again get the hell out of the casino until you know what you are doing. I will conceed that there must be a cheating dealer out there somewhere, but I would not be considered an AP if the dealer errors in my favor wouldn't at least offset the miniscule percentage of dealer cheats. You can't be afraid to play this game, and don't let bad variance keep you up at night with nightmares of the boogyman, or in this case cheating dealers. Now quit your cryin and put you friggin helmet on and get in the game.

You could not have said it any better. The only thing I disagree with you is most here are not AP but paraniod wana be's!:laugh:

 

[Reno Dude]

I can't believe this is still being talked about. I will try to put this in the most gentle way possible. QUIT F**KING WORRYING ABOUT CHEATING DEALERS, AND START WORRYING ABOUT HOW TO REALLY PLAY! First off as an AP you must realize the faster the dealer the better. More hands equals more money potential. If you can't keep up, get the hell out of the casino until you can. You'll save more money that way instead of looking for shifty eyed dealers to avoid.

Next, realize that most dealers are not that good. There are far more dealers out there that will make errors in your favor then there are dealers skilled enough to rip you off. Any of these clods that make an error against you, well its up to you to catch that. If you don't, then again get the hell out of the casino until you know what you are doing. I will conceed that there must be a cheating dealer out there somewhere, but I would not be considered an AP if the dealer errors in my favor wouldn't at least offset the miniscule percentage of dealer cheats. You can't be afraid to play this game, and don't let bad variance keep you up at night with nightmares of the boogyman, or in this case cheating dealers. Now quit your cryin and put you friggin helmet on and get in the game.

Well said. This post should be a sticky

 

[Tarzan]

Hang on a minute here!

I read the aftermath of my post. Please note where I mentioned the questionable or even doubtful aspect of this being done anywhere currently and mentioned it only from a historical aspect that it has in fact been done "way back when"---Historical fact.
I highly doubt this occurs in any common or standard practice on the part of any casino currently. Do I still watch closely any hand-dealt game and not wholeheartedly and blindly trust someone who is geared to take my money? There is obviously a fine line that separates paranoia and evaluative common sense in most any instance. I am not paranoid at all but at the same time remain observant of all things around me! I play primarily in Atlantic City and I know that there is no cheating on the part of the casinos; They need only rely on their positive expectation factor with no need to cheat as I am sure most casinos do in this day and age. They are large corporations and not what they were 20 years ago! They "have big shoulders". My post was merely from the historical standpoint that the "Laughlin Layaway" technique was in fact utilized in the past and not that anyone should be paranoid that the casino is cheating you in these modern times. Very few dealers are operating on anything other than the robotic basic functions of their job these days and things are not as they were 20 plus years ago.
Those people that had total blind faith in Lincoln Savings and Loan some years back (how could these people that are OBVIOUSLY above reproach do anything shady.. I mean hey, the guy that ran Lincoln Savings and Loan was a politically affiliated good christian sort of guy, right?) and those that invested in a certain Merrill Lynch whacko voodoo high yield fund that petered out to a total loss of all monies invested in this supposedly reputable firm also some years ago. Blind trust will do you a world of wrong and a little caution in any given situation never hurts.
Rampant cheating on the part of casinos? No way...I mean what the hell FOR??? Some of the things that occurred long ago almost certainly don't happen today but by the same token a giant corporation can get away with just about any ol' thing that is clearly not to the individual's advantage, such as suckering people into playing 6 to 5 blackjack so there is little need for them to push the envelope!

P.S. If you have any relatives that you don't particularly like or ex-wives and the like, send them to my table in my den where I have single deck, double deck, 6 and 8 decks...I will recommend the single deck game...and...JUST KIDDING!)hahahaha