Funniest Arguement against Counters ever

[ihate17]

Anderson is a self admitting moron but he does not realize it

That guy is Andy Anderson who calls himself a casino detective. I believe he is now retired. He used to work for Griffin and he claims he chased "those M.I.T. guys around Vegas". I couldn't believe he could say that with a straight face!:joker:Also on "The Hot Shoe" Anthony Curtis suggests that for every AP there are hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of blackjack players who have no clue. Makes you wonder why the casinos even care about us!

In watching the history channels show on the MIT team, Andy Anderson goes on talking about how smart he was to nail these kids from MIT. I think most AP's laughed their butts off because it took Anderson a ton of time to do this and if he had any clue he would have shut the team down months earlier. When it comes to catching counting teams, Anderson is pure ploppy.

 

[JulieCA]

Slightly different, in that you are still a potentially good customer for Staples, because when they have a profitable item there that you need, you'll buy it. We will never be a profitable customer for casinos. It's not like one day we're going to forget about EV and start gambling. The problem is not exactly our specific behavior at the BJ table, but the way our minds work in general; we have the ability and the inclination to defeat them in everything we do inside their building.

You can't really compare it to a store, though. Nobody in a casino is "buying" anything or any one item, nor are there items on sale.

I'm trying to think of what other business it most closely resembles - as in, we're not making a lot of money per item, but we make up for it in volume.

It somewhat resembles the stock market, except in the stock market being informed and making money is what's supposed to happen, and it's good for everyone involved. :laugh:

From a business standpoint, the casinos should be looking at card counters - and possibly blackjack in general - as a loss leader. Their biggest complaint should be that the card counters aren't spending their money elsewhere in the casinos, like on the shows, the food and the hotel. That's why some casinos will only bar you from the blackjack table - they're stupid enough to believe you will actually go play slots if they don't let you play blackjack! As if, right? They're more than making up any losses or small margins in blackjack with higher-advantage games, most especially the slots.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

You can't really compare it to a store, though. Nobody in a casino is "buying" anything or any one item, nor are there items on sale.

I'm trying to think of what other business it most closely resembles - as in, we're not making a lot of money per item, but we make up for it in volume.

It somewhat resembles the stock market, except in the stock market being informed and making money is what's supposed to happen, and it's good for everyone involved. :laugh:

From a business standpoint, the casinos should be looking at card counters - and possibly blackjack in general - as a loss leader. Their biggest complaint should be that the card counters aren't spending their money elsewhere in the casinos, like on the shows, the food and the hotel. That's why some casinos will only bar you from the blackjack table - they're stupid enough to believe you will actually go play slots if they don't let you play blackjack! As if, right? They're more than making up any losses or small margins in blackjack with higher-advantage games, most especially the slots.

There are actually card counters who have a gambling problem too. Hard to believe at first, but not that different from a doctor having a drug addiction. Easy access, lots of stress.

People who work in casinos are probably at least as dysfunctional as compulsive gamblers and I think their treatment of AP's is more related to ego than business.

 

[bigplayer]

Spotting counters

If they trained their staff to recognize counters then they could catch them and wouldn't have to destroy their own games!

I mean yeah stuff like BP Teams would take a little longer to catch but they are just losing sooo much money by dealing such poor Pen!

If they'd just let everyone play regardless of skill they would be able to spend more time looking for real threats to their bottom line like dealers not following procedures and cheats. The most successful casinos are always those that let players play and offer games that have good rules but are otherwise tough to beat. (For example s17 das ls rsa shoes but 2/6 deck cutoffs and shuffle machines and fast experienced well trained dealers).

While Kim Lee's version of asshole Andy's response would have been much better politically for the casinos I still find it distasteful to know that casinos as a regulated business basically with a state issued license to print money can choose only the average, unskilled, or impaired players to play their fixed games and then disallow anyone with above average skill from play. This can't be within the spirit that the state has in mind when casino regulations were created and can't be good public policy. In the grand scheme of things counters take only a very tiny percentage of the house's money yet possibility that someone can play well enough to possibly win money at blackjack has created a huge windfall.

Irregardless of casinos being allowed to bar players rules have deteriorated in most jurisdictions anyway. Compare Missouri, Indiana, AC, and Vegas and you'll find very little differences in rules sets despite huge variation in the casino policies towards skilled players.

 

[bigplayer]

Casinos are not like "any business"

Whether casual counters are a "real threat" is sort of beside the point.

If a casino recognizes that you're a drain on their resources (even a modest one), and not an expected net loser, it's a simple and appropriate business decision for them to back you off. Just like any business with a troublesome customer that's costing them $ - they'd all tell you to take a hike.

It does take some resources to pick off counters, of course, but I don't think much is really required, and it probably makes sense to their bottom line.

You hear this a lot...but I'd say that casinos are a state licensed entity with a state issued ability to make money by creating nothing. They are hardly "just like any business" and thankfully some states are coming around to that point of view. If counters are a drain on resources it's only because the casino has decided to devote too many resources, without any real financial reason, towards finding them.

 

[Jack_Black]

From a business standpoint, the casinos should be looking at card counters - and possibly blackjack in general - as a loss leader. Their biggest complaint should be that the card counters aren't spending their money elsewhere in the casinos, like on the shows, the food and the hotel. That's why some casinos will only bar you from the blackjack table - they're stupid enough to believe you will actually go play slots if they don't let you play blackjack! As if, right? They're more than making up any losses or small margins in blackjack with higher-advantage games, most especially the slots.

My thoughts exactly. BS players are only at a -.4 to -2% disadvantage. I've seen plenty of ploppies leave the table with way more than they started with(while I'm in my major downswing) even 6:5 only gives up to 2% advantage, compared to roulette and slots? or some payouts on craps? 20%!!
I've talked to PBs who say that SDBJ is a huge loss leader for them. Where I live, I've played a lot of BJ and have ran into the most incompetent counters. I've never met a good counter at the tables, and have only seen the worst of the worst ploppies. and the casinos still can't make money off the BJ tables?! that's why they asked state legislation to allow 6:5.

Look at comp rates for BJ compared to slotplayers. I've had some pretty bad down swings, yet all I get is some food. my ploppy friends that play slots get ipods, and gps units, drawings for cruises, etc, etc. Of course, I'm still not gonna play slots, unless there's a real advantage!

 

[johndoe]

Edge is just part of it; action is what really matters. Many hands of blackjack can be played during the time it takes to run a round of roulette, or for someone to bust out in craps.

Even with a small house edge, if they can play BJ much faster, and with less personnel/overhead/floor space, it's a net win for the casino.

(Still not as good as slots though!)

I'm sure the casinos are making a fair amount with 3:2 - but if they decide they can make more with 6:5, who can blame them for trying the switch? (They're probably wrong, of course.)

 

[JulieCA]

Look at comp rates for BJ compared to slotplayers. I've had some pretty bad down swings, yet all I get is some food. my ploppy friends that play slots get ipods, and gps units, drawings for cruises, etc, etc. Of course, I'm still not gonna play slots, unless there's a real advantage!

Indeed. Whenever someone tells me about all the comps they get, I know immediately they're primarily a slots player.

I've met slot players who routinely drop $3K to $4K/month into the slots. I don't play BJ for a living - but I'm sure not taking that kind of money off the tables!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Edge is just part of it; action is what really matters. Many hands of blackjack can be played during the time it takes to run a round of roulette, or for someone to bust out in craps...)

I don't think that's necessarily so, because most of the craps players are playing the sucker bets on every roll. It's one of the more profitable games, as it attracts large action and huge edges on the prop bets, the only downside is the labor requirements.

 

[johndoe]

I don't think that's necessarily so, because most of the craps players are playing the sucker bets on every roll. It's one of the more profitable games, as it attracts large action and huge edges on the prop bets, the only downside is the labor requirements.

That's true, get enough suckers playing those 10%+ bets and it'll make up for the slow pace.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

That's true, get enough suckers playing those 10%+ bets and it'll make up for the slow pace.

It's not even that slow, being those bets are per roll and not per hand. With a fast stick man they can get 150 rolls per hour easily, much faster than any shoe BJ game.