H17 8 deck games

[Blue Efficacy]

How do you out someone without outing yourself?




This one sounds like a real ploppyism, unless you were steering the Ace to yourself? What if he stole your 6?

Outing myself is the only thing that stopped me. Of course I can't out someone without outing myself.

And ploppyish? I disagree. If you're at a high count, it is more likely they'll get a good card than a bad card. That's just simple math. And there's also the chance they'll cost me a round at the end.

Are you saying you honestly wouldn't mind if I backcounted your game and played 3 boxes when the count got high? I might get a 5 or 6 on one of those hands, I suppose :laugh:

 

[sagefr0g]

.... etc, isn't much of an AP.

i know personally six extremely talented AP's that would tell you different.
oh, and about eight or nine pit boss's. :laugh:
not to mention a whole slew of old school AP guys that i don't know but we've probably all read about.

 

[21forme]

Are you saying you honestly wouldn't mind if I backcounted your game and played 3 boxes when the count got high? I might get a 5 or 6 on one of those hands, I suppose :laugh:

No, that's not what I'm saying. If you played an east coast game, you'd realize that wonging in and out is the primary way to play. If I knew another counter was at the table, I wouldn't wong in, unless it was someone I knew and we had an agreement to that effect. I often play with a friend and if I walk by his table and see 1x100 or 2x75, I know TC = +2, and I'll jump in. Vice versa also applies. That's the understanding we have.

However, if I'm walking by a table just starting and after a couple of rounds, the count is +1, I'll jump in. How would I know there's another counter there? With the WIWO approach, I don't linger at the table longer than necessary.

Those are just the facts of life on the east coast. CP may not like it, but by being so adamant oabout not playing the game, he's just showing his inflexibility and inability to adapt to prevailing conditions.

As AM said, we're not supporting crappy games. We're taking money from them, just as we do at any game we play.

 

[creeping panther]

Wise Won

i know personally six extremely talented AP's that would tell you different.
oh, and about eight or nine pit boss's. :laugh:
not to mention a whole slew of old school AP guys that i don't know but we've probably all read about.

Thanks for the kind words and likewise I am sure

These guys from the East Coast sure know how to hurt an old cats feelings:cry:

CP

 

[creeping panther]

Monkey

How am I rewarding a casino by playing with an advantage at their tables? I am taking from those tables, just like I take from the 6:5 SD games and carnival games in Atlantic City. I reward myself from those tables, not the casino.

If they start to offer 10D games I will **** the 10D game too, just as if it was the 8D game's mother. A little different technique, ample reward. What's the problem?




No, a good AP takes his advantage where he finds it, be it a flashing dealer, an exploitable promotion, or a deeply-dealt or unprotected BJ game with any rules or decks that allow it to be played with an advantage. Sure, I will play Midwest DD just like you do when I have the opportunity. The difference is that's all you know how to play. I will modify my play to beat any BJ game in my vicinity.

Think of it in warrior terms. The BJ game is your enemy. You have to fight it and defeat it, and you know how to do that. If you meet a different enemy, you may have to fight differently, with different weapons and tactics, but if you can do that it just makes you a better warrior.

So Monkey, all I know how to play is DD??????:laugh: I actually find shoe games much easier!!

You are wrong about the "BJ WARRIOR" part....a true WARRIOR chooses his battle ground, he never gives the choice up to the enemy, see 300?

I know you are one of the most highly skilled players on the E. Coast so it does not surprise me that you play 6.5 and beat it on a regular basis, or that you beat any game that comes your way....but few have your tremendous skillz, especially newbies.

To think that the fine games I play are at my doorstep is wrong, the casino close by offers the games you love so much, I won't play them... so I drive, on a regular basis, 3 or 4 or more hours one way to play the fine ones.

But you all make fine points and I respect them all as i respect all of you.:grin:

CP

 

[Automatic Monkey]

So Monkey, all I know how to play is DD??????:laugh: I actually find shoe games much easier!!

You are wrong about the "BJ WARRIOR" part....a true WARRIOR chooses his battle ground, he never gives the choice up to the enemy, see 300?

I know you are one of the most highly skilled players on the E. Coast so it does not surprise me that you play 6.5 and beat it on a regular basis, or that you beat any game that comes your way....but few have your tremendous skillz, especially newbies.

To think that the fine games I play are at my doorstep is wrong, the casino close by offers the games you love so much, I won't play them... so I drive, on a regular basis, 3 or 4 or more hours one way to play the fine ones.

But you all make fine points and I respect them all as i respect all of you.:grin:

CP

I respect you too and your desire to play good games.

When I compare games, I compare them in terms of expected net win for the trip. Sure, I could fly to Las Vegas or Minneapolis or Memphis and get a better game, but along with the superiority of the game I have to consider that I have 8 hours less to play the games, plus I have to consider the cost of travel which is 100% loss.

Suppose I have 48 hours available to play. I can drive to Foxwoods and play a 8D, S17 LS game for $70/hour. 4 hours of driving (R/T), let's say 12 hours sleep and personal time, leaves me with 32 hours at the tables, or $2240 in EV, and I can subtract $20 for gasoline which leaves me a net profit of $2220.

Or I can fly to Las Vegas and play a DD game worth $120 per hour. But I spend 11 hours in the air, 4 hours screwing with airports and shuttles, still need 12 hours to sleep and eat. That leaves 21 hours at the table- for a EV of $2520, and my $300 plane ticket- I'm back to $2220! Anything less than 48 hours and it makes no sense at all.

 

[creeping panther]

Monkey

I respect you too and your desire to play good games.

When I compare games, I compare them in terms of expected net win for the trip. Sure, I could fly to Las Vegas or Minneapolis or Memphis and get a better game, but along with the superiority of the game I have to consider that I have 8 hours less to play the games, plus I have to consider the cost of travel which is 100% loss.

Suppose I have 48 hours available to play. I can drive to Foxwoods and play a 8D, S17 LS game for $70/hour. 4 hours of driving (R/T), let's say 12 hours sleep and personal time, leaves me with 32 hours at the tables, or $2240 in EV, and I can subtract $20 for gasoline which leaves me a net profit of $2220.

Or I can fly to Las Vegas and play a DD game worth $120 per hour. But I spend 11 hours in the air, 4 hours screwing with airports and shuttles, still need 12 hours to sleep and eat. That leaves 21 hours at the table- for a EV of $2520, and my $300 plane ticket- I'm back to $2220! Anything less than 48 hours and it makes no sense at all.

Yes, those are excellent points, and I do understand the cost associated with travel.

I am either comped or some other thing going on too keep the cost low and ev high as well as making a get away, having a vacation, seeing the sights etc. To me the whole package is just a wonderful time. In truth it has added much to my life in a good way, hope for you too.

CP

 

[kewljason]

When you play 8D you are rewarding a casino for offering TRASH ...why will the casino not offer 6D??????because people will play the 8D and then soon the 10D etc..
A good AP has discipline to say no!! Enough is enough!
CP

I apologize for weighing in late on this subject as I have been traveling alot recently, but I too must respectfully disagree with CP's statement. I know from previous threads that some regulars don't consider me an AP because I don't make six figures a year. As a matter of fact, if the year were to end today, the 46K I am up right now would be my high water mark. So admittedly I haven't made a ton of money, but I have completely supported myself playing blackjack for 5 and a half years now. I would love to have access to more profitable games as CP does but as of yet I have not been willing to give up my life, friends and partner to relocate closer to such opportunities and frequent travel is unfeasible at my betting level and EV, so I play the crappy east coast games regularly and travel when I can.
Since CP has much better opportunities available, I admire that he is so disciplined in seeking out the best games, but I don't feel I am rewarding the casinos because I play what is available. I also don't feel undisciplined. It takes a great deal of discipline to beat these games regularly.

 

[Kasi]

... I know from previous threads that some regulars don't consider me an AP because I don't make six figures a year. ... It takes a great deal of discipline to beat these games regularly.

I was hoping you would weigh-in since you are living proof lol.

Anybody who thinks you are not an AP based solely on $'s won is probably not an AP in the first place. I don't know who you are talking about but I hope it's not me lol.

Winning for 5+ years cannot be an accident or "luck", whether it's enough to support you entirely or not.

It could even perhaps be argued that in order to "beat" these "crappy" games even more discipline may be required.

Whatever opinions others may hold about the relative value of playing 8D games, in my book, I just think what you have achieved is great and you should take pride in it and not apologize for it.

And that you definitely have the right "handle" here kewlj :cool2:

 

[kewljason]

I was hoping you would weigh-in since you are living proof lol.

Anybody who thinks you are not an AP based solely on $'s won is probably not an AP in the first place. I don't know who you are talking about but I hope it's not me lol.

Winning for 5+ years cannot be an accident or "luck", whether it's enough to support you entirely or not.

It could even perhaps be argued that in order to "beat" these "crappy" games even more discipline may be required.

Whatever opinions others may hold about the relative value of playing 8D games, in my book, I just think what you have achieved is great and you should take pride in it and not apologize for it.

And that you definitely have the right "handle" here kewlj :cool2:

I thank you for the kind words, Kasi. My apology was for weighing in a bit late on the subject, not for the quality of games that I play. Someday I may relocate and be able to choose a better quality of game to play, but I haven't yet made that commitment, so I play what is available to me at the moment.

The AP comment wasn't directed at you. It wasn't directed at anyone specific. Different people have different ideas about the definition of such. I just remember a thread a while back in which some of the higher level players didn't think too much of us "grinders" making 30-40k a year.

 

[creeping panther]

kewl

I apologize for weighing in late on this subject as I have been traveling alot recently, but I too must respectfully disagree with CP's statement. I know from previous threads that some regulars don't consider me an AP because I don't make six figures a year. As a matter of fact, if the year were to end today, the 46K I am up right now would be my high water mark. So admittedly I haven't made a ton of money, but I have completely supported myself playing blackjack for 5 and a half years now. I would love to have access to more profitable games as CP does but as of yet I have not been willing to give up my life, friends and partner to relocate closer to such opportunities and frequent travel is unfeasible at my betting level and EV, so I play the crappy east coast games regularly and travel when I can.
Since CP has much better opportunities available, I admire that he is so disciplined in seeking out the best games, but I don't feel I am rewarding the casinos because I play what is available. I also don't feel undisciplined. It takes a great deal of discipline to beat these games regularly.

Kewl, you are OK in my book, BJ Bro'

CP

 

[Kasi]

... My apology was for weighing in a bit late on the subject, not for the quality of games that I play. ...I just remember a thread a while back in which some of the higher level players didn't think too much of us "grinders" making 30-40k a year.

I know you are a much nicer guy than I am lol.

Like it matters (to me) when you say whatever - I don't care when you say what, just what you say whenever you say it lol.

Guess I never picked up on what "higher" level players may or may not have said about you or about their opinion of your dollars won or not in so long doing whatever. Maybe because, if that's what they may have opined, I just dismissed as a case of more money than brains. I ain't about dollars won, it's about achieving EV to me lol.

Why the heck do you even think there exist "higher" level players than you?

Oh yeah - let's define AP expertise as $won per year. Give me $10MM and if I can't win 6 figures a year for the rest of my life while just employing voodoo, please stick a white-hot needle in each eye months apart and make me eventually swallow a snake after hammering each toe and finger to oblivion and later amputating them, then amputating each of my limbs at each successive joint until I am a sack :grin:

Please don't include me in "us "grinders"" - I am not worthy of that title and it is a title I respect greatly.

I have a strictish definition of AP in my ivory tower and, so far, you fit it lol.

Doesn't mean I don't have equal respect for others around here. I do.

Like it matters anyway what I think :grin:

 

[Bojack1]

The AP comment wasn't directed at you. It wasn't directed at anyone specific. Different people have different ideas about the definition of such. I just remember a thread a while back in which some of the higher level players didn't think too much of us "grinders" making 30-40k a year.[/

I do hope you are not referring to me again on this. If you are than you need to stop with pity party, I never said anything close to derogatory to you or any other self proclaimed "grinders". I respect any player that can win at this game, or just stick to their game plan win or lose for that matter. As long as the game plan is not a guaranteed loser. I do not respect those that attempt to make a living at this game with a proven negative expectation as a game plan, thats just ignorant. But then again thats not you so again, you have garnered my respect.

And if you were not referring to me in this post I apologize for the misunderstanding, I just remember last time you took offense where I thought it unnecessary.

 

[jack.jackson]

I do hope you are not referring to me again on this. If you are than you need to stop with pity party, I never said anything close to derogatory to you or any other self proclaimed "grinders". I respect any player that can win at this game, or just stick to their game plan win or lose for that matter. As long as the game plan is not a guaranteed loser. I do not respect those that attempt to make a living at this game with a proven negative expectation as a game plan, thats just ignorant. But then again thats not you so again, you have garnered my respect.

And if you were not referring to me in this post I apologize for the misunderstanding, I just remember last time you took offense where I thought it unnecessary.

I remember reading "that" comment awhile back, and in no way, did I think, it was meant in a negative kind of way. Personally, im sure we've all been in situations, where it's been taken the wrong way. Thats just life.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I thank you for the kind words, Kasi. My apology was for weighing in a bit late on the subject, not for the quality of games that I play. Someday I may relocate and be able to choose a better quality of game to play, but I haven't yet made that commitment, so I play what is available to me at the moment.

The AP comment wasn't directed at you. It wasn't directed at anyone specific. Different people have different ideas about the definition of such. I just remember a thread a while back in which some of the higher level players didn't think too much of us "grinders" making 30-40k a year.

Hey don't worry I don't even quite make $30-40K. I only play weekly or biweekly and most of it is in a store where I have to slow-play them.

It has nothing to do with anyone's skill or seriousness. The time you have available to play is the time you have available to play, and the stakes you have chosen are the stakes you have chosen. Those two parameters are completely personal decisions and are unrelated to anyone's qualifications as an AP.

 

[kewljason]

It wasn't really my intention to drudge up that whole argument again. Sometimes I am a bit too sensitive, so I apoligize for that. I really just wanted to offer my opinion on the thought that playing 8 decks is just rewarding the casino for offering a trash game, and point out that we don't all have the opportunity to play better games regularly, so we make do.

 

[DonR]

Like it matters anyway what I think :grin:

The wisest thing you said in a long time. Oh, and here's a "lol" from me too. :grin:

I just couldn't resist it. That's all from me...good night everybody.