newby looking for direction/ books

[cardcounter0]

Lawrence Revere's "Playing Blackjack as a Business" is an often overlooked book that is good. Not so much for the factual information, but it gives you good insight, and puts you into the proper mindset for beating and making money at the game.

 

[BJinNJ]

I use hitorstand.com flash game at work...

and CVBJ at home.

When both are set up for AC rules S17, DAS I have found NO
differences between BS strategy results of the two drills.

I agree that Blackjack Attack is an excellent book, but it's
not for beginners, IMHO.

Revere's Playing Blackjack as a Business is an excellent book, too.
But it lacks discussion of BR and ROR. Blackjack Blueprint is in the
same mold as Revere's work, but much more up to date. Blueprint
is basically a tutorial for Hi/Lo, while Professional BJ is the bible for
Hi/Lo.

BJinNJ

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

I played 1 deck last night that was 1-2, stateline Tahoe and they dealt 75% of the deck. That is why I am running the same scenario using the appropriate table from here

Of course I was playing very late when there were no other players burning the deck.

And I certainly am concentrating on getting BS down solid, but as I run across these situations I like to address them and learn from them.

thanks again for the replies.

ARE YOU SURE THIS GAME WAS "3:2 BJ" AND NOT "6:5 BJ"? Even if it was, both BASIC STRATEGY and COUNTING says to HIT in the above situation.

Your Hi-Lo TC was in fact +12 which is not enought to stand on 14 vs. 9. YOU MUST REALIZE THAT HI-LO IS FLAWED IN MANY WAYS. You give up small PENALTIES in exchange for it's simplicity. For example, what if all four aces where still left in the deck? They wouldn't help you but that would imply THE POSSIBILITY THAT THERE ARE NO TENS LEFT IN YOUR REMAINING 13 CARDS!

Now, if you still start the RC with -1 for the hand, Wong's Halves says the TC is only +8, not +12. (i.e.: started w./ -1.0; his 3,6 brought it up to +1.0; the dealer's 9 brought it down to +0.5; his two consecutive hits of 2,3 brought it up to +2.0; dividing by 0.25 for a quarter deck is TC = +8.

With an even more advanced system than Halves, say TUC, the VALUE of the positive TC becomes worse. (i.e.: started w./ -8; his 3,6 brought it up to +4; the dealer's 9 brought it down to +1; his two consecutive hits of 2,3 brought it up to +12; dividing by 8 to convert back to Hi-Lo gives us +1.5; then dividing by 0.25 for a quarter deck is TC = +6.

However, these two examples are probably *not* helping you very much with the understanding of what I meant by "penalties." THE MOST VALUABLE CARD FOR YOUR SITUATION WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SEVEN! And most systems are not what I would call "7-reckoning." Therefore, YOUR INFORMATION IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE A LITTLE SHOTTY ON FOURTEEN VERSUS ANYTHING AND YOU MUST ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION BY ALWAYS USING BASIC STRATEGY FOR ANY AND ALL HARD FOURTEENS UNLESS SURRENDER IS ALLOWED.

SO, ASSUMING NIETHER ONE OF US ARE MATHEMATICIANS, MY ADVICE TO YOU IS TO TRUST THE INDEX NUMBERS THAT HAVE BEEN PROVIDED TO YOU EITHER BY A MATHEMATICIAN OR A SIMULATION. I know you said you were hoping to learn more about BJ as you learn more about BS and that's cool. Plus, your question was an interesting one. It's always a good idea to question the authorities--EXCEPT WHILE SITTING IN A CASINO. This is why BS is so important. It is a foundation for everything else involved with BJ.

IF IN DOUBT, PLAY BASIC STRATEGY.

 

[Warlord]

Thanks for the great replies eye heart halves; et al.

I certainly have tons to learn and am motivated. I think I found my calling.

I am getting Wongs Prof BJ to start with and maybe blackbelt BJ or The bluebook II.

Should I get Bluebook I' before II ?

I have been playing through the deck while having this chart on my screen. I have both 1 and 6 deck charts up. I like 1 deck games but realize they are hard to find.
I try to keep count while doing this but lose it when I need to refer to the charts. So I think I need to concentrate on BS and practice my count as another exercise, and combine the exercise as I go?

Again, thanks for the friendly replies.

cheers

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

Thanks for the great replies eye heart halves; et al.

I certainly have tons to learn and am motivated. I think I found my calling.

I am getting Wongs Prof BJ to start with and maybe blackbelt BJ or The bluebook II.

Should I get Bluebook I' before II ?

I have been playing through the deck while having this chart on my screen. I have both 1 and 6 deck charts up. I like 1 deck games but realize they are hard to find.
I try to keep count while doing this but lose it when I need to refer to the charts. So I think I need to concentrate on BS and practice my count as another exercise, and combine the exercise as I go?

Again, thanks for the friendly replies.

cheers

1D games aren't "hard to find." They're in Reno. CBJN (Wong's newspaper) attempts to list every blackjack table in North America. Now, you could say "you live too far," or "your expected value (EV) would not justify the travel expenses." But if you lived in Reno, then, they're not hard to find and you don't live too far.

As for the other books, I think that you should just worry about reading the important parts of PB (the "Hi-Lo bible" as someone else phrased it) and then expand your horizons. As for "justifying your expenses" I would compare the prices for PB on three sites (if you haven't already bought it). Compare amazon, eBay and bj21.com. (I am a Wong Disciple but I'm also a penny pincher--I'm not about to pay him more than I have to.)

As far as BS and CC go, I recommending (again) that you learn BS before learning the running count (RC) and that you do it with cue cards and/or test yourself by writing/typing the complete tableau from scratch, off the top of your head. Once you're 100% with BS, then, start trying to RC with a deck of cards.

After you can count down 51 cards (either singles or pairs--it's up to you) in 30 seconds or less (Accurately(!)--Your accuracy is determined by the value of the one unseen card you removed from the deck.), then it's time to practice a whole host of other finer details. It is at this point when you should consider combining your BS and CC knowledge.

--Halves

 

[BJinNJ]

Get Bluebook II, it's updated.

BJinNJ

 

[cardcounter0]

You should have Basic Strategy etched into your brain before you "practice" anything else. You need to have BS down cold 100% first.

In a real casino, the dealer is going to be calling out cards and tapping the table when he deals someone an Ace, you are going to have to add up your hand in your head, the cocktail waitress is going to be asking you for a drink and showing her cleavage, and all at the same time the player next to you is going to be tell you he can only play for 5 more minutes because he as to meet his wife at 6, then the dealer is going to say in 10 more minutes I take a break.

Now what is the count? and should you split 6,6 against 7. Hurry the whole table is waiting, and remember to stack your chips properly when making a bet.

YOU SHOULD NOT BE EXPENDING ANY MENTAL EFFORT ON BASIC STRATEGY.

You are going to have enough to pay attention to and enough outside "noise" to filter out, that you should not be expending any effort on "do I hit/stand/split/double". Make that automatic.

 

[hawkeye]

I would like to add one more thing, as a newbie. I read many times on here and other places/books about counting down a deck in less than 30 seconds. Within 2 weeks of learning hi/lo I was counting down a deck in 20 seconds perfectly, over and over and over. I wanted to test out my skills at a low limit table at a real casino, and once I got there I lost the count very quickly with a real shoe and the casino environment. Practice with a real shoe, dealing 6 decks to multiple hand like dealers do. It's much different than counting through a deck. Or practice at a casino a few times using the lowest stakes you can find, while playing perfect BS to minimize losses.

 

[callipygian]

I thought Wong made "a lot" (as in life-changing--put a down payment on a house kind-of-a-lot) during the seventies when he knew how to back-count shoe games before writing about it? I thought I remember reading that in one of my books by another author but like I said, I'm extremely biased. His blackjack play may be more "mythical" than "legendary" but his writing is definitely full of fact.

Allegedly, according to his tax returns, Wong made very little from the casinos. I've never seen him deny this, so I'm inclined to treat it as fact.

One possible explanation is that he is a tax cheat (something he explicitly condemns in his books). Another is that he didn't really make all that much money, and mostly just played for the challenge of beating the casinos (like Peter Griffin).

I don't think the latter case would really diminish from what he's writing. Mathematicians use the generic "unit" specifically so that what's mathematically valid for $5 bets is valid for $5,000 bets. If Wong had ever told grandiose stories about getting hookers to cash in $500 chips for him, I think I would think less of him, but as far as I know, he's always been upfront about his experiences.

 

[Warlord]

1D games aren't "hard to find." They're in Reno. CBJN (Wong's newspaper) attempts to list every blackjack table in North America. Now, you could say "you live too far," or "your expected value (EV) would not justify the travel expenses." But if you lived in Reno, then, they're not hard to find and you don't live too far.

As for the other books, I think that you should just worry about reading the important parts of PB (the "Hi-Lo bible" as someone else phrased it) and then expand your horizons. As for "justifying your expenses" I would compare the prices for PB on three sites (if you haven't already bought it). Compare amazon, eBay and bj21.com. (I am a Wong Disciple but I'm also a penny pincher--I'm not about to pay him more than I have to.)

As far as BS and CC go, I recommending (again) that you learn BS before learning the running count (RC) and that you do it with cue cards and/or test yourself by writing/typing the complete tableau from scratch, off the top of your head. Once you're 100% with BS, then, start trying to RC with a deck of cards.

After you can count down 51 cards (either singles or pairs--it's up to you) in 30 seconds or less (Accurately(!)--Your accuracy is determined by the value of the one unseen card you removed from the deck.), then it's time to practice a whole host of other finer details. It is at this point when you should consider combining your BS and CC knowledge.

--Halves

well I live in Tahoe, ~40 minutes from Reno. I am closest to North shore Stateline Biltmore and Crystal Bay . The Biltmore is where I have always played against the dealer 1D. I figured I will wear out my welcome there if I am not careful so I figure I need to learn 6D games as well.

Should I only concentrate on BS for 1 deck?

I definitely understand the importance of learning BS so it is second nature "etched in my brain". Keeping count will be hard enough with all that cleavage running around. My main focus is on BS right now but my side homework will be reading and training myself to hold a count etc. all while playing BS effortlessly.

Do you make a cue card for every single cell in these tables? and what about how they change depending on 3of decks etc? do you make variations to account for that? I'd buy flash cards if someone sold them.

As for the book. I have credit at Barnes & Noble from Xmas returns so hopefully the Reno store has the books I need ( I will just get Wongs for now) and I need to make a trip down from Tahoe and grab it. Otherwise I would order online.

thanks again

 

[Warlord]

You should have Basic Strategy etched into your brain before you "practice" anything else. You need to have BS down cold 100% first.

In a real casino, the dealer is going to be calling out cards and tapping the table when he deals someone an Ace, you are going to have to add up your hand in your head, the cocktail waitress is going to be asking you for a drink and showing her cleavage, and all at the same time the player next to you is going to be tell you he can only play for 5 more minutes because he as to meet his wife at 6, then the dealer is going to say in 10 more minutes I take a break.

Now what is the count? and should you split 6,6 against 7. Hurry the whole table is waiting, and remember to stack your chips properly when making a bet.

YOU SHOULD NOT BE EXPENDING ANY MENTAL EFFORT ON BASIC STRATEGY.

You are going to have enough to pay attention to and enough outside "noise" to filter out, that you should not be expending any effort on "do I hit/stand/split/double". Make that automatic.

Sounds like solid advice that I am/will be adhering to.

as far as 6,6 vs a 7. You split them in 1 Deck and hit them in 6 D right?

And what do you mean by stacking my chips properly?

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

hey callipygian,

Allegedly, according to his tax returns, Wong made very little from the casinos. I've never seen him deny this, so I'm inclined to treat it as fact.

One possible explanation is that he is a tax cheat (something he explicitly condemns in his books). Another is that he didn't really make all that much money, and mostly just played for the challenge of beating the casinos (like Peter Griffin).

I don't think the latter case would really diminish from what he's writing. Mathematicians use the generic "unit" specifically so that what's mathematically valid for $5 bets is valid for $5,000 bets. If Wong had ever told grandiose stories about getting hookers to cash in $500 chips for him, I think I would think less of him, but as far as I know, he's always been upfront about his experiences.

You seem to have "evidence" to back up your arguement

I will have to admit defeat:sad: and that "Planet Ho" story was really funny. You suck:devil:

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

well I live in Tahoe, ~40 minutes from Reno. I am closest to North shore Stateline Biltmore and Crystal Bay . The Biltmore is where I have always played against the dealer 1D. I figured I will wear out my welcome there if I am not careful so I figure I need to learn 6D games as well.

Should I only concentrate on BS for 1 deck?

I definitely understand the importance of learning BS so it is second nature "etched in my brain". Keeping count will be hard enough with all that cleavage running around. My main focus is on BS right now but my side homework will be reading and training myself to hold a count etc. all while playing BS effortlessly.

Do you make a cue card for every single cell in these tables? and what about how they change depending on 3of decks etc? do you make variations to account for that? I'd buy flash cards if someone sold them.

As for the book. I have credit at Barnes & Noble from Xmas returns so hopefully the Reno store has the books I need ( I will just get Wongs for now) and I need to make a trip down from Tahoe and grab it. Otherwise I would order online.

thanks again

Wow, you certainly live in the right location for becoming a CC! Will you wear out your welcome? Should you play 6D instead? Well, there is more heat at a 1D than a 6D but there's not zero(!) heat at a 6D. Only you could be the best judge but you would be a better judge when you learn more about the "cat & mouse" aspects which come much, MUCH later. I learned all this stuff years ago, on my own! When I a question, I would choose the answer I least wanted to hear. This is the case for you--LEARN BOTH BASIC STRATEGY TABLEAU.

LOL@ "if we sold cue cards--you'd buy'em???" (And how should you make them?) You're missing the point!!! BY THE TIME YOU FIGURE HOW TO AND AFTER YOU FINISH CRAFTING THE CUE CARDS, YOU'LL KNOW BASIC STRATEGY:laugh:

:flame:They will probably not have all the books you'll need at Barnes & Noble:flame:

You got me angry because you made me flashback to when I first learned BS and CC. I used to think I could cut corners. I thought I could get rich quick. Now I know that there is no such thing as a get-rich-quick-scheme unless you invented a get-rich-quick-scheme that you can sell to people who believe in get-rich-quick-schemes. Sorry, it is not my place to try to humble you.

 

[Warlord]

I just got back from Reno and picked up my first two books.

Professional BJ by Wong and
The big book of BJ by Snyder? Good? Bad? keep? return?

They did not have any of the other ones mentioned in this thread and the big book seemed like it has some good info.

 

[bj bob]

Sounds like solid advice that I am/will be adhering to.

as far as 6,6 vs a 7. You split them in 1 Deck and hit them in 6 D right?

And what do you mean by stacking my chips properly?

On the contrary, the only time you would split 6,6 v. 7 is if you are playing DAS (otherwise, it's a short split, i.e ->6). Since you're not going to find a SD, DOA on this planet the only correct answer would be to stand in the SD game and to split (if DAS) in the 6D game.
As far as your particular neighborhood is concerned, just hop down the hill on Country Club Dr to the Hyatt and check to see if they've improved that lousy 6D pen and practice on the shoes. It's too bad about the Biltimore, though, they used to have the BEST DD game in northern Nev. with their DOA and DAS along with 85% pen. I just knew it wouldn't last forever.

 

[BJinNJ]

Your books are...

!) Professional Blackjack - excellent
2) Big Book of Blackjack - OK

I expected more from Big Book, but it's interesting in it's own way.

Blackbelt in Backjack is a much better Snyder book.

If you're going to learn Hi/Lo re: Pro BJ, think about Blackjack Blueprint.
Casino Verite even has a 'lite' version just for Blueprint drills, among
other needed skills.

BJinNJ

 

[Warlord]

I just finished reading Snyders "the big book of BJ"

I just finished reading Snyders "the big book of BJ" and thought it was excellent.
What do others think of his Red Seven Count system?

It seemed to give a good overviews of BJ and its history as a game and those who have pioneered beating the casinos.

I plan on reading everything I can and i feel this is will prove to have been a good foundational read to work from.

I am starting Wongs Prof BJ now and am ordering more books.

I am also sitting at all the tables I can around here to get familiar with what variations are available and what to concentrate on as far as BS to start with and to get more familiar with the game and the surroundings.

I started making flashcards of BS as well and as in college, just the chore of writing it out is the most useful tool to remembering . (as was mentioned in this thread by others)


Cheers

 

[rukus]

I just finished reading Snyders "the big book of BJ" and thought it was excellent.
What do others think of his Red Seven Count system?

It seemed to give a good overviews of BJ and its history as a game and those who have pioneered beating the casinos.

I plan on reading everything I can and i feel this is will prove to have been a good foundational read to work from.

I am starting Wongs Prof BJ now and am ordering more books.

I am also sitting at all the tables I can around here to get familiar with what variations are available and what to concentrate on as far as BS to start with and to get more familiar with the game and the surroundings.

I started making flashcards of BS as well and as in college, just the chore of writing it out is the most useful tool to remembering . (as was mentioned in this thread by others)


Cheers

good, you seem to be on your way. million dollar blackjack is also a good book you should add to your list. people will say it is outdated, but i say you can still learn a lot from the book in terms of the attitude and discipline, as well as it just being a fun read that gives you encouragement to keep going.

 

[Warlord]

good, you seem to be on your way. million dollar blackjack is also a good book you should add to your list. people will say it is outdated, but i say you can still learn a lot from the book in terms of the attitude and discipline, as well as it just being a fun read that gives you encouragement to keep going.

Million $ BJ is on my list. Along with 5 or so others.

I agree on the encouragement factor, it is paramount I think for any greenhorn such as myself to help to not get burned out on it all.

I a m kind of in the mindset as EyeHeartHalves said:
"When I a question, I would choose the answer I least wanted to hear."

I am taking it (CC) all with a grain of salt and not expecting much. I am not married nor do I have kids, nor do I drink or party anymore (9yrs sober) so I figure learning this craft of BJ and CC is better than watching TV or what not.
I think the real trick is to as you said, not get discouraged so that I can have some longevity and stand a chance.

My one concern would be that you spend all this time to get good but it is worthless if you cannot get away with it. But I am thinking to far ahead.

back to Wongs Prof BJ.

 

[Warlord]

On the contrary, the only time you would split 6,6 v. 7 is if you are playing DAS (otherwise, it's a short split, i.e ->6). Since you're not going to find a SD, DOA on this planet the only correct answer would be to stand in the SD game and to split (if DAS) in the 6D game.
As far as your particular neighborhood is concerned, just hop down the hill on Country Club Dr to the Hyatt and check to see if they've improved that lousy 6D pen and practice on the shoes. It's too bad about the Biltimore, though, they used to have the BEST DD game in northern Nev. with their DOA and DAS along with 85% pen. I just knew it wouldn't last forever.

What is "DOA" ?

I was playing at the Biltmore, 1 deck and they let me dbl after a split. So wouldn't this chart apply and thus u would split a 6-6 vs. a 7?

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