Not playing for comps in Vegas

[zengrifter]

It was last Tuesday night in the wee hours of the morning (technically Wednesday morning) at the Borgata in the $25 - $50 pit on the end table closest to the cashier (which is around the corner), if you have any way to check it out. The pit said he cashed out $126,000 from a $400 buy in. Please, by all means check it out-- anyone.

KewlOne - I just called my PB buddy at Borgata, we did HS together, Brother Aslan's story checked out!

Still, I agree that its kind of ploppyish to talk about it, but hey, he was there in the thick of it, so I probably would post the story here too! zg

 

[kewljason]

KewlOne - I just called my PB buddy at Borgata, we did HS together, Brother Aslan's story checked out!

Still, I agree that its kind of ploppyish to talk about it, but hey, he was there in the thick of it, so I probably would post the story here too! zg

Well, then my apologies to Aslan for doubting the story, but that really wasn't my point, to begin with.

 

[aslan]

Well, then my apologies to Aslan for doubting the story, but that really wasn't my point, to begin with.

You did say, "Pure fantasy and only a 'gambler' could be as excited to tell that story as you were."

What zg has confirmed proves that it was not pure fantasy, and what "only a 'gambler' could be as excited to tell," a good writer might convey as well. I do consider myself a good writer, and I hope I did capture the excitement of the moment as experienced by all who were there in my presence. Had you been there, I believe you would have been excited, as well.

 

[zengrifter]

What zg has confirmed proves that it was not pure fantasy, and what "only a 'gambler' could be as excited to tell," a good writer might convey as well.

Yes, but that UBL assasination story is utter bullsh*t. z:laugh:g

 

[aslan]

Yes, but that UBL assasination story is utter bullsh*t. z:laugh:g

Maybe the White House could use my writing skills. A:laugh:Z

 

[Sucker]

Yes, but that UBL assasination story is utter bullsh*t. z:laugh:g

I have long believed that UBL has been dead for many years now. However; after careful study of these recent videos, I have to admit that he DOES appear to be a man who has aged 10 years since the photos of him that were published shortly after 9/11. NOW I don't know WHAT to think - perhaps there's some OTHER explanation?

 

[BJgenius007]

For the past 3 years since I moved to green/black level I have played mostly unrated. Back in AC, I would play rated sparingly, just enough to get comped rooms and some food comps. When I moved west, I went to almost total anonymous play. Since I lived in Vegas, I didn't need comped rooms and quite frankly as a player moving from east to west, was a little concerned about barrings and backoffs.

Discussions of the topic in several different threads here and a few private discussions, including one member who was very adamant that I was leaving money on the table by playing unrated convinced me to give playing rated a try, so for the last 6 months I have played rated some. I couldn't bring myself to do so at a few of my favorite locations that I play most frequently, especially one of the bigger chains in the city for obvious reasons.

So after 6 months, here is my conclution: It's not for me. Not at my level and my style of play. I think if you are playing big bucks, spreading black to purple and beyond, it might be worthwhile. Sounds like Dye and Moo do quite well with offers and Mr Lee counts offers as part of his EV. But at my level, spreading green to black and especially playing very short sessions as I do, my offers haven't been that good. I don't know if the casinos are cutting back on offers right now, or my style and level isn't that conducive to getting them. Yeah, I got some free plays and some match plays and a ton of free rooms, which as I stated, I don't have a lot of use for. And in exchange I feel like I gave up that anonymitity that has worked so well for me.

And anyone who tones down their play, like lower spread to accumulate comps is making a big mistake in my opinion. You would be better off playing full spread anonymously, and pay for your own rooms and/or meals, especially at a time when rooms are so freaking cheap.

I have a few small local places that I have to tone down my action anyway, simply because they won't accept my mid black action, so those are the places I will play rated a little bit just to get enough comps for a few meals. Places, like terribles, or the stations, or tuscany. Since these places have good $4 breakfast, which is my favorite meal, I don't need to earn much comps and I'm not risking anything. And If I am indeed leaving a little money on the table this way, well that's OK, because I will be welcome back to pick up that money on my next trip.

I found the sweet spot to get good comp is light green chip. If you are playing black chips, they suspect you could be professional counters. If you are red chippers, the Strip casinos just ignore you. Normally I play $25 to $450 spread on the shoe game. But at my favorite casino Palazzo, I only spread $25 to $300. And there is a trick. For the first 5 or 10 minutes after buy-in when the pit boss watch me play, I flat bet $50. So even later he came back to check me again, it looks like I am spreading $50 to $300. There is no threat for spreading 6 to 1! For doing this, I get free executive suite, $300 or $500 table game free play and some minor stuff like champagne, gift basket, free shows and spa etc.

I play 3 or 4 hours at the first day I checked in then about 2 hours in the following days.

 

[21forme]

I found the sweet spot to get good comp is light green chip. If you are playing black chips, they suspect you could be professional counters. If you are red chippers, the Strip casinos just ignore you. Normally I play $25 to $450 spread on the shoe game. But at my favorite casino Palazzo, I only spread $25 to $300. And there is a trick. For the first 5 or 10 minutes after buy-in when the pit boss watch me play, I flat bet $50. So even later he came back to check me again, it looks like I am spreading $50 to $300. There is no threat for spreading 6 to 1! For doing this, I get free executive suite, $300 or $500 table game free play and some minor stuff like champagne, gift basket, free shows and spa etc.

I play 3 or 4 hours at the first day I checked in then about 2 hours in the following days.

What makes palazzo your favorite?
It can't be the games - 8D H17 mediocre pen. And they don't give comps any more, unless your a black chipper, right?

 

[aslan]

I found the sweet spot to get good comp is light green chip. If you are playing black chips, they suspect you could be professional counters. If you are red chippers, the Strip casinos just ignore you. Normally I play $25 to $450 spread on the shoe game. But at my favorite casino Palazzo, I only spread $25 to $300. And there is a trick. For the first 5 or 10 minutes after buy-in when the pit boss watch me play, I flat bet $50. So even later he came back to check me again, it looks like I am spreading $50 to $300. There is no threat for spreading 6 to 1! For doing this, I get free executive suite, $300 or $500 table game free play and some minor stuff like champagne, gift basket, free shows and spa etc.

I play 3 or 4 hours at the first day I checked in then about 2 hours in the following days.

It's been a while since I played the Venetian, and haven't had the pleasure of the Palazzo yet. The Venetian was good with room offers and other perks, and the surveillance reportedly loose. I suppose the same applies to Palazzo. I'll try to get there next week.

 

[aslan]

What makes palazzo your favorite?
It can't be the games - 8D H17 mediocre pen. And they don't give comps any more, unless your a black chipper, right?

That can't be good. Who can win at 8D H17? No comps? Has the Venetian gone this way, too?

 

[BJgenius007]

That can't be good. Who can win at 8D H17? No comps? Has the Venetian gone this way, too?

1. Pit bosses have no idea what I am doing.
2. Best free play.
3. Great hotel room. It is only 3 years old.
4. Location.

I like to add something to the thread. AP should target one or two for the comp and stick with it once you have found one that suits you. But the more important is to spend most of the time playing anonymous in other casinos.

 

[21forme]

That can't be good. Who can win at 8D H17? No comps? Has the Venetian gone this way, too?

Yup. See http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=21167&highlight=venetian

1. Pit bosses have no idea what I am doing.
2. Best free play.
3. Great hotel room. It is only 3 years old.
4. Location.

I like to add something to the thread. AP should target one or two for the comp and stick with it once you have found one that suits you. But the more important is to spend most of the time playing anonymous in other casinos.

If the comps are gone, I presume that includes free play, so see what happens next time...

 

[aslan]

1. Pit bosses have no idea what I am doing.
2. Best free play.
3. Great hotel room. It is only 3 years old.
4. Location.

I like to add something to the thread. AP should target one or two for the comp and stick with it once you have found one that suits you. But the more important is to spend most of the time playing anonymous in other casinos.

True, Venetian was one of my best stays in Vegas.

 

[zengrifter]

I found the sweet spot to get good comp is light green chip. If you are playing black chips, they suspect you could be professional counters.

Oy vey. zg

 

[horse_johnson]

I'm a red chipper and I try to play rated. No one cares, although when playing shoes I wong so much that it's pointless to give them my card. I get away with a lot of obvious behavior (i.e., watching a lot, sitting at a table for a few shoes and cherry-picking a tiny number of hands to play) because I play red. As I posted in an earlier thread, I experimented with playing a lackluster game really sloooow for the fixed period of time necessary to get a hotel room and a nice meal in a city where that's convenient for me.

But that was a waste of time, more I think of it. While it may be possible to calculate the EV of the comp offset by what you're putting into it, those are murky calculations at best. I guess I want to keep it simple. I go, I play my game, I leave.

And when I do get those bonus points for free slot play (don't they know I don't play slots?) I don't know what to do with them. I googled how to play video poker so I could extract my $20 bonus the other day. Well, I guess some people like it, but VP is a dreadfully boring game. Actually, every casino game is boring as hell. I don't understand why people play BJ without counting. It's boring enough WITH the counting, and I could teach a 4-year-old to count.

As for the dude who wants to "reduce" variance: it's simple, just make your BJ bankroll a smaller chunk of your overall portfolio. Just because you have lots of dough in the bank doesn't mean you have to play with it all. (And if you do have a lot of money, there are probably better investments anyway.) If you become a red chipper you can get away with the obvious wonging behavior I get away with. Of course then you won't make as much money for the time spent, but you won't care at all when you lose. (I may have not read your post completely, but--and I'm embarrassed to say that this was not immediately intuitive for me--isn't a "break-even" game high-variance and deadly to your BR by definition?)

I got into BJ after I got bored of online poker, so I set aside a chunk of money to give it a try. I wish that, in a theoretical fantasy world, I could count cards online instead of having to go to the casino. At least where I live, casinos are only entertaining in the way that staring at a car accident is entertaining. They smell, their food is making me fat, and they are frequented by many people who are just plain defective. No way could I play this game full-time.

And if you want a hotel room, you can stay in a nice hotel almost anywhere in the country for less than $70--just figure out how to use Priceline intelligently. So that, at most, is what a hotel comp is worth. Nothing more. If I was playing green, I just wouldn't bother getting rated.

 

[aslan]

As for the dude who wants to "reduce" variance: it's simple, just make your BJ bankroll a smaller chunk of your overall portfolio. Just because you have lots of dough in the bank doesn't mean you have to play with it all. (And if you do have a lot of money, there are probably better investments anyway.) If you become a red chipper you can get away with the obvious wonging behavior I get away with. Of course then you won't make as much money for the time spent, but you won't care at all when you lose. (I may have not read your post completely, but--and I'm embarrassed to say that this was not immediately intuitive for me--isn't a "break-even" game high-variance and deadly to your BR by definition?)

I guess I'm "the dude" who want to reduce variance. The variance I am talking about is the not just the percentage, but the dollars. It's the wide swing in dollar amounts. Which do you think is more risky, a break even game with minimum bet, or a break even game with maximum bet? When you have max bet out, even though your percentage variance may be smaller than when you have min bet out, the amount of money at risk is very large. What I am looking for is a way to cut down on the dollar variance. So, by playing a smaller betting spread, I am reducing the amount of dollars at risk when betting in a positive count. This reduces my overall win rate, so that if I am not careful I will either be playing a break/even game or a losing one. It is a trade-off between dollar risk and dollar profit. You can't have your cake and eat it.

As for your comment to just reduce your bankroll, then you are either faced with a reduced betting amount or an increased RoR. I don't want to become a red chipper, nor do I wish to operate at too high an RoR. The compromise seems to be to reduce the betting spread only to the point where both an acceptable win rate and an acceptable RoR are possible.

 

[horse_johnson]

Sorry, I use the honorary "dude" reflexively, and probably too much. There probably isn't a "correct" answer to this quandary. But if I were given a choice to play "flip a coin" for nickels or count cards for quarters, with a bank of a Kelly-appropriate amount for the latter endeavor, I'd definitely run out of money faster flipping a coin, right? I'm pretty sure, anyway. (Of course, since I only have enough BR to count cards for nickels, I would run out of money doing both.

But that's not too interesting. Time for a much more pressing question: You actually once owned a lion?

 

[aslan]

Sorry, I use the honorary "dude" reflexively, and probably too much. There probably isn't a "correct" answer to this quandary. But if I were given a choice to play "flip a coin" for nickels or count cards for quarters, with a bank of a Kelly-appropriate amount for the latter endeavor, I'd definitely run out of money faster flipping a coin, right? I'm pretty sure, anyway. (Of course, since I only have enough BR to count cards for nickels, I would run out of money doing both.

But that's not too interesting. Time for a much more pressing question: You actually once owned a lion?

I had a dog named Aslan after the CS Lewis character (Tales of Narnia). When we first got Aslan almost 21 years ago, he would hide under the bed when the doorbell rang. We felt the name Aslan would be a good name he could aspire to (courage-wise), sort of a role model. Of course he understood all this! He was a very gentle, good-natured dog whom one of our cats adopted as her own. He later saved her life from a fox, but that's another story. Aslan passed away last June 15, after living with us for nearly 20 years. I had taken Aslan as my username on the Forum 4 years ago.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Okay living in Vegas I could see how the need for comps is reduced as you don't need a hotel. For those traveling from far away, however, playing rated is a great way to get free rooms AND free rooms in the future, as well as free rooms in gaming markets all over the country.

As for getting offers in the mail, I have been getting tons and tons from AC including free airfare and 4 nights stay, and I was getting 3 free nights and $400 in slot play from the Palazzo before they quit giving out offers. A few days ago I got $600 in free chips from a Station Casino offer and the next day got a $150 offer for free chips from a different Station Casino.

Comps have been big for me, BUT to be quite honest I have been backed off a lot. I was spreading 1-24 on DD for hours at a time the first real trip I had to Vegas. Good idea? No. Did I get tons and tons of comps while it lasted? Yes.

But getting backed off isn't as big of a deal for me as others because I use a couple different "novelty IDs" so I can come back with a new identity and start over.

KJ - I think the biggest way you could use comps would be getting discretionary comps from the PBs. Your play may be too short for large amounts of mail offers, but if a PB sees you with a hand of $500 out there and you ask for a meal at the steakhouse, you're probably golden.

But is getting that meal to the steakhouse worth losing MGM properties?

Comps totally depend on how you play, how often you play, and where you play. You may be better off not playing for comps actually!


- Dye

 

[kewljason]

KJ - I think the biggest way you could use comps would be getting discretionary comps from the PBs. Your play may be too short for large amounts of mail offers, but if a PB sees you with a hand of $500 out there and you ask for a meal at the steakhouse, you're probably golden.

But is getting that meal to the steakhouse worth losing MGM properties?

Comps totally depend on how you play, how often you play, and where you play. You may be better off not playing for comps actually!

- Dye

My conclusion as well, Dye. Thank you. I think people advising me to incorporate comps and offers into my play, probably don't understand how I play, how much I move around and how short many of my sessions are. Often times I when I sit down at a table if the count goes negative right away, I am gone withing a few hands. Sometimes when I do play rated, I am done playing and ready to leave, before the floorman has returned my card.

The times I play real short sessions or even if I stick around for the whole shoe betting $25, I wouldn't earn much credit. The times I would earn some points are the big plus counts, when I am throwing some black out and those are really the times I don't want them to know who I am, so in that regard it's kind of a catch 22. :sad:

You know the value of MGM properties well, Dye. 7 MGM stores that I play regualarly made up nearly 50% of my income last year, and over 50% so far this year. I am not doing anything to jepordize that.