Question about Spanish 21 basic strategy
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duanedibley
Well-Known Member
According to Spanish 21 Basic Strategy, you should not double 9 against 2.shinyam said:
However, if you do double, and you end up with less than 17, it would not be correct to surrender, because you will win (ie the dealer will bust) more than 25% of the time, which is the cut-off for surrendering.
Yes, if you are using B.S. you should not double a 9v2. In fact, the count would have to be extraordinarily high for you to double your 9v2. You'd probably have your max bet out by the time you double your 9v3, and the probability of getting a count in which it's correct to double a 9v2 in Sp21 is very very rare that it's not worth even learning. Way far "down the list" of the most important indices to learn for Sp21.
And also, the rule for double down rescue is:
1. If you double down, and end up with a 12 - 16, you "Surrender", or "Double Down Rescue" if the dealer is showing an 8 - A.
2. Or, if you double down and get a 17, you Rescue if the dealer has an Ace.
Other than that, don't double down rescue. People also usually don't make indices for rescue, even though it's technically possible to do so.
Source: http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21
Edit: duanedibley, you said, "However, if you do double, and you end up with less than 17 it would not be correct to surrender" but in actuality, if you ended up with less than 17 and the dealer is showing an 8-A you do surrender (rescue).
And also, the rule for double down rescue is:
1. If you double down, and end up with a 12 - 16, you "Surrender", or "Double Down Rescue" if the dealer is showing an 8 - A.
2. Or, if you double down and get a 17, you Rescue if the dealer has an Ace.
Other than that, don't double down rescue. People also usually don't make indices for rescue, even though it's technically possible to do so.
Source: http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21
Edit: duanedibley, you said, "However, if you do double, and you end up with less than 17 it would not be correct to surrender" but in actuality, if you ended up with less than 17 and the dealer is showing an 8-A you do surrender (rescue).
duanedibley
Well-Known Member
I was talking specifically about the case of 9 vs 2, which is why I said the dealer will bust >25% of the time, which is naturally not the case vs 8-A.assume_R said:
duanedibley
Well-Known Member
You are right, it is not correct to rescue after doubling down in this example (or any time that the dealer is showing 2 through 7).shinyam said:
There do seem to be a few errors with the hitorsplit trainer, so maybe you have found another one of them.
Regarding being allowed to hit 21, I wouldn't think you'd be allowed, being as there is an "Automatic Win" on a 21. Also never hit a 21, that's just asking for heat :flame::laugh:shinyam said:
However, the reason you should hit is because of the bonus for a 7-card 21. If you already have 6 cards and you have a soft 20 (so that you can't possibly bust), you have a 1 in 13 chance of getting that 3-1 payout for the 7+ card 21 on your next card, and if you don't get it, you can still try again for your 8th card (since you can't bust on the 7th).
Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense.
I find learning basic strategy extremely easy, with one exception: the numbers: that is, when to hit based on the number of cards you have.
If I fail to learn these numbers, is the game still beatable with card counting? How much do I lose for not learning these? They are very random, and not easy to memorize.
I find learning basic strategy extremely easy, with one exception: the numbers: that is, when to hit based on the number of cards you have.
If I fail to learn these numbers, is the game still beatable with card counting? How much do I lose for not learning these? They are very random, and not easy to memorize.
duanedibley
Well-Known Member
Yes the game is still beatable with counting if you skip the multi-card basic strategy plays. I don't remember off the top of my head how much you lose.shinyam said:
However, I would still suggest you learn these plays, for the sake of discipline more than anything else. They really only take 3 days of flash card drills to get down cold, and if you don't want to do this, you will likely be tempted to rush a lot of other things too before you step into the casino.
The numbers help you get some more multi-card-21 bonuses. While they may seem random they actually do make sense. For example, if you have a 17 and the dealer shows a 9, you're probably going to lose. But normally it's not worth the risk of hitting. Yet if you have a chance for that 3-1 bonus, it becomes worth it to risk hitting.shinyam said:
Anyway, to answer your question explicitly, yes the game is beatable without knowing all the numbers and just counting. Sims will easily show this. You just want to give yourself as much of an edge as possible!
duanedibley
Well-Known Member
One alternative to learning the composition-dependent basic strategy plays is to learn "relative indices" for potential bonus hands. These can be found in table 6.16 of Kat's book.
The most important ones are:
H/S w/ potential 678: +2
H/S 4-card stiff: +2
H/D 3-card hand: +1
So let's say our normal H/S index for 14 vs 4 is -3. If we are looking at 86o then we stand at >= -1.
Similarly, if our normal H/D index for 10 vs 8 is -3, and we have a 3-card 10, we double this at >= -2.
I don't think there is much value in adding the suited/spaded, 5/6 card stiff, or 4+ card double plays, as these really never come up.
I hope that helps!
The most important ones are:
H/S w/ potential 678: +2
H/S 4-card stiff: +2
H/D 3-card hand: +1
So let's say our normal H/S index for 14 vs 4 is -3. If we are looking at 86o then we stand at >= -1.
Similarly, if our normal H/D index for 10 vs 8 is -3, and we have a 3-card 10, we double this at >= -2.
I don't think there is much value in adding the suited/spaded, 5/6 card stiff, or 4+ card double plays, as these really never come up.
I hope that helps!
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Except in positive counts. Those are among the few plays where it pays to use indices for multi-card hands, they come up so often. And in a negative count you don't double them at all.moo321 said:
Another nice one is you don't hit 3-card hard 17 in a positive count.
Bugs are now Fixed
The following bugs in the Spanish 21 trainer have now been fixed:
1) Under Standard S17, 8 decks: After doubling down on 11 against a dealer's Ace, I received a 6 and surrendered with 17. The game told me that I was incorrect. It said that I should have HIT. But hitting was not an option because I had already doubled down. The correct play was indeed to Surrender because hitting was not possible.
2) Under Standard S17, 8 decks: I had a 7 of spades and an 8 of spades, and the dealer had a 4. I hit, but the game incorrectly told me that the correct play was to stand.
3) In the three versions of Spanish 21 (Standard H17, Redouble H17, Standard S17), the dealer receives a "hole card" (a card facing down). The dealer should "peek" at that card, and the game should immediately end if the dealer has a blackjack (an Ace and a face card). Currently, the dealer does not "peek". In the Pontoon versions of the game, there is no hole card, and the game seems to work correctly.
4) In the Spanish 21 game, if a player doubles down and receives a card that makes the total less than 17 and subsequently STANDS, the game incorrectly tells the player that he should have SURRENDERED.
The following bugs in the Spanish 21 trainer have now been fixed:
1) Under Standard S17, 8 decks: After doubling down on 11 against a dealer's Ace, I received a 6 and surrendered with 17. The game told me that I was incorrect. It said that I should have HIT. But hitting was not an option because I had already doubled down. The correct play was indeed to Surrender because hitting was not possible.
2) Under Standard S17, 8 decks: I had a 7 of spades and an 8 of spades, and the dealer had a 4. I hit, but the game incorrectly told me that the correct play was to stand.
3) In the three versions of Spanish 21 (Standard H17, Redouble H17, Standard S17), the dealer receives a "hole card" (a card facing down). The dealer should "peek" at that card, and the game should immediately end if the dealer has a blackjack (an Ace and a face card). Currently, the dealer does not "peek". In the Pontoon versions of the game, there is no hole card, and the game seems to work correctly.
4) In the Spanish 21 game, if a player doubles down and receives a card that makes the total less than 17 and subsequently STANDS, the game incorrectly tells the player that he should have SURRENDERED.