Question

[shadroch]

Am I crazy or is there also a way for the track to be counted automatically from the pit or eye in the sky using some sort of RFID technology. Obviously something would have to be in the cards and then read as it comes out of the shoe, or the camera could pick it up if it's in the right spot. But if the count was automatically counted, and they also used RFID to track your bets with computers...it would only be a small step for a programmer to compare these two pieces of information to find out who is counting. There would be some sort of correlation between bet size and count, then if it's above a certain statistical point, the person counting would be tagged and removed.

The system exists. It was called Mindplay and was a dismal failure. In Reno, a casino tracked the count and ordered a new deal whenever the count was good for players. The players sued and that practice is now illegal.

 

[johndoe]

The system exists. It was called Mindplay and was a dismal failure. In Reno, a casino tracked the count and ordered a new deal whenever the count was good for players. The players sued and that practice is now illegal.

That's true, though if I remember right they only required a delay of some number of hands from the data collection/view, to prevent this kind of abuse.

But these tables can still be used to identify counters, just look for the optical card reader attached to the shoe, it's pretty obvious. I've never been to a casino that had one, and I'm sure they're pretty rare. Luckily, people don't trust them.

Of greater concern is them just tracking bet variation (regardless of count) via rfid chips to call in greater scrutiny. I'm not sure how much this is done.

 

[gibsonlp33stl]

Yea - that should be illegal. But not necessarily the pit seeing the count...but it just getting databased along with the bets for computer analysis with like a 10 minutes delay or something. Just to identify counters...seems like a lot of money and technology to catch counters, but casinos seem to like wasting money on that.

 

[ihate17]

Question of casino cheating or not cheating

Yea - that should be illegal. But not necessarily the pit seeing the count...but it just getting databased along with the bets for computer analysis with like a 10 minutes delay or something. Just to identify counters...seems like a lot of money and technology to catch counters, but casinos seem to like wasting money on that.

The El Dorado in Reno was the casino the used Mindplay to cheat all the players at their tables. They shuffled away positive counts and dealt deeply on all negative counts. They dealt a single deck game and the out of court settlement brokered by Gaming required an 8 hand delay on count info going to the pit. Without a doubt an 8 hand delay cancels the possibility of casino cheating at single deck.
Gaming, of course, has no problem with the pit, eye or anyone concerned at the casino getting this information aferwards. The casino can easily review things and know if a player is a counter.

Mindplay and the cost of it were a waste of big money but not for the reason you posted. Mindplay was not developed to catch counters and the catching of a few amatuer counters is really all Mindplay could do. It had no defense against smart counters and team play.
Instead, Mindplay was really developed to:
1. Cut comps given to players
No longer did you get any comps on your restroom or cell phone breaks. No longer could a friendly pit write down a larger than actual bet average for you to get you an extra comp.
2. Reduce employee staff:
Since the pit no longer needs to evaluate players and the device was supposed to catch counters, you no longer need as many pit types.
Since the eye no longer needs to worry about counters and cheats such as bet cappers and even card switchers (Mindplay knows the exact order of the cards to be dealt), you no longer need as many people in surviellance.

This is how Mindplay was marketed. The representatives of Bally/Alliance gaming never mentioned and the idiot casino bosses who bought the thing never thought, that the players would just refuse to play against a strange looking device that actually knows the exact order of every single card in the stack. Mindplay is today an absolute failure because given a choice, even the most addicted gambler will not play if he can go elsewhere.

Finally, Mindplay is the direct cause of blackjack suicide:
Once upon a time in the not too distant past there was a casino in Vegas that was not new, not upbeat, not the hot place in town but because of their rules and how they dealt blackjack had a huge number of biggest blackjack players. This place is still known today as the Las Vegas Hilton.
Some, since fired, idiot placed Mindplay gizmos on their blackjack tables and even without the knowledge of the capability of the thing, the Hilton quickly began losing all of their blackjack players till there were few or none left. Their profitable blackjack games became a distant memory and eventually they tossed Mindplay into the streets (it landed up at Flamingo for a short period of time but I think everything they have at Flamingo was picked up from the streets). Instead of re-establishing their old good and profitable blackjack games, trying to get their old customers back, they just gave up, killed any good rules and have become a blackjack wasteland.

ihate17

 

[callipygian]

players would just refuse to play against a strange looking device that actually knows the exact order of every single card in the stack. Mindplay is today an absolute failure because given a choice, even the most addicted gambler will not play if he can go elsewhere.

If that is the worst drawback of Mindplay, sooner or later someone's going to come up with the brilliant idea of putting Mindplay in at EVERY casino - at which point nobody has a choice any more. Especially in places where every casino is owned by 1-2 decision makers, this is fairly easy to implement.

Here's the real question: assuming Mindplay does save money, how long would one have to run it to recoup the cost of the system?

 

[shadroch]

I believe Mindplay costs around $20,000 a table. I can't imagine Harrahs or MGM rushing out to put them on every table in every casino. Places like The Bighorn rarely buy new cards, let alone a $20,000 table device.

 

[Katweezel]

The old boy's ghost is sick of Paris

The El Dorado in Reno was the casino the used Mindplay to cheat all the players at their tables. They shuffled away positive counts and dealt deeply on all negative counts. They dealt a single deck game and the out of court settlement brokered by Gaming required an 8 hand delay on count info going to the pit. Without a doubt an 8 hand delay cancels the possibility of casino cheating at single deck.
Gaming, of course, has no problem with the pit, eye or anyone concerned at the casino getting this information aferwards. The casino can easily review things and know if a player is a counter.

Mindplay and the cost of it were a waste of big money but not for the reason you posted. Mindplay was not developed to catch counters and the catching of a few amatuer counters is really all Mindplay could do. It had no defense against smart counters and team play.
Instead, Mindplay was really developed to:
1. Cut comps given to players
No longer did you get any comps on your restroom or cell phone breaks. No longer could a friendly pit write down a larger than actual bet average for you to get you an extra comp.
2. Reduce employee staff:
Since the pit no longer needs to evaluate players and the device was supposed to catch counters, you no longer need as many pit types.
Since the eye no longer needs to worry about counters and cheats such as bet cappers and even card switchers (Mindplay knows the exact order of the cards to be dealt), you no longer need as many people in surviellance.

This is how Mindplay was marketed. The representatives of Bally/Alliance gaming never mentioned and the idiot casino bosses who bought the thing never thought, that the players would just refuse to play against a strange looking device that actually knows the exact order of every single card in the stack. Mindplay is today an absolute failure because given a choice, even the most addicted gambler will not play if he can go elsewhere.

Finally, Mindplay is the direct cause of blackjack suicide:
Once upon a time in the not too distant past there was a casino in Vegas that was not new, not upbeat, not the hot place in town but because of their rules and how they dealt blackjack had a huge number of biggest blackjack players. This place is still known today as the Las Vegas Hilton.
Some, since fired, idiot placed Mindplay gizmos on their blackjack tables and even without the knowledge of the capability of the thing, the Hilton quickly began losing all of their blackjack players till there were few or none left. Their profitable blackjack games became a distant memory and eventually they tossed Mindplay into the streets (it landed up at Flamingo for a short period of time but I think everything they have at Flamingo was picked up from the streets). Instead of re-establishing their old good and profitable blackjack games, trying to get their old customers back, they just gave up, killed any good rules and have become a blackjack wasteland.

ihate17

Great post Ihate17. If I was a honcho of Hilton, here's what I would do, after reading that. I would hire you in an advisory capacity and offer you a performance-influenced contract for... uh, big bucks. Your mission... should you choose to accept it, would be to return the Hilton BJ wasteland to its former glory (and profitable) days. Have they got your number? I think you can expect a call any time now, as I can feel Conrad stirring. :cat:

 

[shadroch]

For myself, I'd rather feel Paris stirring.

 

[ihate17]

Why blackjack is popular here and not elsewhere

If that is the worst drawback of Mindplay, sooner or later someone's going to come up with the brilliant idea of putting Mindplay in at EVERY casino - at which point nobody has a choice any more. Especially in places where every casino is owned by 1-2 decision makers, this is fairly easy to implement.

Here's the real question: assuming Mindplay does save money, how long would one have to run it to recoup the cost of the system?

For less money the casino could put a CSM on every table. I think the point goes deeper than just the player having a choice. In many countries all blackjack is dealt from a CSM and in each and everyone of those countries blackjack is a very unimportant table game! In Europe Roullete and Bac are tens of times more important to casinos than blackjack and in Asia, Bac is the main game.

Blackjack is the most popular table game in the U.S. for only one reason I think.
Because ploppies know that the game can be beaten and then play but never put in the work and effort to actually beat the game. Take that "can be beaten" fact away and the ploppies and amatuers will play slots, other games or not go to a casino at all.

Remember the casinos think they have the power. The advantage players think they have the power, but they are both wrong.
The average guy who tosses his money and loses it on the table has ALL the power because if he stops showing up, the casino is broke and the advantage player has no game to beat.

ihate17.......POWER TO THE PLOPPIES!!!!!!!!

 

[ihate17]

There is more to the story

Great post Ihate17. If I was a honcho of Hilton, here's what I would do, after reading that. I would hire you in an advisory capacity and offer you a performance-influenced contract for... uh, big bucks. Your mission... should you choose to accept it, would be to return the Hilton BJ wasteland to its former glory (and profitable) days. Have they got your number? I think you can expect a call any time now, as I can feel Conrad stirring. :cat:

The person who I consider the best cardcounter that I know was once an executive at the Hilton when it was on top of the blackjack world. Her arguements against getting Mindplay for the casino were so strong that the person in charge fired her over it. She told them exactly what would happen if they installed it and in disguise once teamed with me and we beat the thing for a nice five figure win.
She no longer works in the casino biz but has put her engineering degree to work, is raising a family and still hits casinos when time permits. She does not post on blackjack boards but does post on a few boards designed for table game execs.

ihate17

 

[Mr.M]

Where is Mr. M? Since we are all friends here maybe we should say where is Dave instead.

Here, been busy with kids and stuff. I am touched that you asked Inplay, :cry:. It's all good, sorry but blowing up and getting out of line. If I offended anyone I am sorry. I have a anger management problem, :flame:.

OK, Maybe it's easier to blow up on forums than real life.

 

[InPlay]

Here, been busy with kids and stuff. I am touched that you asked Inplay, :cry:. It's all good, sorry but blowing up and getting out of line. If I offended anyone I am sorry. I have a anger management problem, :flame:.

OK, Maybe it's easier to blow up on forums than real life.

It's all good. It would take more then words to offend me.