Real Pros II

[Craps Master]

Will you give me your opinion on balanced vs. unbalanced counts, and what types of advantage play beyond counting can or should be used with each one.
It seems to me that if one uses an unbalanced count with key departures, more faculty remains to pay attention to other things.

It depends on how seriously you approach the game, and what you want to do beyond counting. I'd say the hi/lo lite is great for shuffle tracking, for instance. Other than that, I really have no preference. I suggest something simple, like hi/lo or KO, and going with no more than 20 indices. If you're a single deck specialist, I can see the advantage in employing a slightly more powerful count, but I don't see the need in general. If you find you are better able to pay attention to things besides the play of the cards when you use an unbalanced count then, by all mean, go right ahead.

More important than the specifics of the count you use is how you use it. Find excellent conditions and give yourself opportunities to play a very aggressive game. That is how you get the money, not by learning more indices or mastering harder counts.

 

[Craps Master]

By the way, pleae refer back to my original post when considering the contributions of QFIT, zenfan (impressive disguise, guy... I know where you learned that trick), and Automatic Monkey in this thread. Pretty much everything they've said has been at least slightly erroneous and, in their discussions of advanced techniques, almost completely erroneous. For instance, there are, yet again, erroneous assumptions about betting levels and heat. They assume big bets always get noticed. They don't. An associate of mine got away with a $100 to 3 x $3000 spread at a major Las Vegas strip casino for hours on end, all because some whale was in the same pit betting 3 x $10,000.

I've seen this kind of thing over and over again, and the people who write the books just don't believe it's possible. They would if they were a little more creative and actually spent a little time in casinos, but they're not and they don't. They rehash the same misinformation again and again and, before you know it, the communithy accepts these erroneous conclusions as fact.

So just remember to keep your eyes and minds open. If you do, you'll certainly find plenty of opportunities to make all the theoretical recommendations in the books look like it was dreamed up by the junior varsity count squad.

 

[KenSmith]

Craps Master, you've expressed your opinion about other members quite clearly in just about every post you've made. It's time to move on to other topics. Continued grinding of the same axe will be considered personal attacks, and dealt with as such.

Your viewpoint has been expressed. No need for repetitive posts.

 

[Craps Master]

Craps Master, you've expressed your opinion about other members quite clearly in just about every post you've made. It's time to move on to other topics. Continued grinding of the same axe will be considered personal attacks, and dealt with as such.

Your viewpoint has been expressed. No need for repetitive posts.

How the hell am I the bad guy here? They've jumped into my thread and tried to argue with me, yet again. I don't really mind, of course, but I would at least like to be able to continue to point out when their advice is bad and ill informed and, in the interest of giving a good explanation, tell the other readers why that is. I think I'm the only actual, full-time professional casino advantage player you have on this site, except for maybe LVHCM1. You're a tournament guy, and you don't see me trying to tell you how you're wrong about tournament info when you post it. That'd just be ignorant of me, wouldn't it? The same thing is happening to me, except that the attacks are coming from theoreticians and weekend warriors in areas where they have shown a decided lack of knowledge. I could just ignore them, of course, but that would defeat the whole purpose, as the whole point of this for me is exposing where the so-called authorities are wrong and showing those who are aspiring to be professional players a different perspective than that offered in the books, complete with some new information that may be new to them.

If you're going to call someone out on attacks, you should really look in the direction of my detractors, who offer up the same erroneous arguments over and over again, ad infinitum. The purpose of this thread is to give sound advice to the newbies, but some people don't seem to want me to do that without having to beat them back with a stick every other post.

I don't make personal attacks out of nowhere. I attack them for their positions and I point out the reasons for the shortcomings in their games. This is part of the process of critical analysis, and it's good for people who want to learn about the game to see it.

 

[DirtHawker]

I've been lurking this forum for a while, and viewing this thread with amusement. But seriously, folks, has everyone forgotten the cardinal rule of internet forums?

 

[golfnut101]

wow

Terribly inappropriate...objective conversation with constructive criticism will only further knowledge, regardless of how we communicate. Please, lets keep this fascinating thread at a civil level, so us rookies can learn something.

 

[KenSmith]

I don't really mind, of course, but I would at least like to be able to continue to point out when their advice is bad and ill informed and, in the interest of giving a good explanation, tell the other readers why that is.

Absolutely. You can certainly continue pointing out what you feel is bad advice and explain why.

I don't make personal attacks out of nowhere. I attack them for their positions and I point out the reasons for the shortcomings in their games. This is part of the process of critical analysis, and it's good for people who want to learn about the game to see it.

Just leave out the personal attacks altogether. They aren't necessary to state your position. For example, you took two shots at me in this thread. Was that really necessary? Did it help you make your point? I don't think so.

Let's take a look:

It sort of falls under the critical thinking part, but be aware that people trying to sell you something are trying to sell you something. That motive often undermines their word, and so you have to be careful about them touting their own products or someone else's product, because they're ultimately only interested in personal gain. They don't care about you.

Just for the record, my income last year from selling blackjack books and software constituted less than 3% of my total income. It's hard to make much of an argument that I'm willing to mislead anyone for such a minor amount of money. My casino income alone dwarfs that, and my unrelated income is still the majority.

FWIW, I'm trying to apply the same standards on both sides of these discussions. If I overlook something that you feel I haven't handled appropriately, let me know.

Just try to stick to the issues, not the personalities or motivations.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

What kind of peeking system are you referring to?

There are many different kinds. A few places use the good old-fashioned bend up the corner of the holecard and look at it. A side effect of this method is that the aces and 10's are going to be bent in the opposite direction. (Ref: Clarke Cant's "Banger Play" or "Wong Warps")

A few casinos have peekers that were built into the tables as afterthoughts and require the dealer to lift the corner of the holecard into it. Once I had a dealer that was having a terrible time doing this without flashing and I exploited him until relieved.

Then there are peeking systems that fail a lot. One store's peekers used to always flash an error code when the holecard was the Ten of Diamonds under another 10, so when I saw this code I knew the dealer had 20. This store had late surrender so it was profitable knowledge. Another system had a nasty habit of reading a 4 as an ace, so the dealer would flip the card over and we all got to play against a face-up 14.

 

[zengrifter]

It depends on how seriously you approach the game, and what you want to do beyond counting. I'd say the hi/lo lite is great for shuffle tracking, for instance. Other than that, I really have no preference. I suggest something simple, like hi/lo or KO, and going with no more than 20 indices. If you're a single deck specialist, I can see the advantage in employing a slightly more powerful count, but I don't see the need in general. If you find you are better able to pay attention to things besides the play of the cards when you use an unbalanced count then, by all mean, go right ahead.

More important than the specifics of the count you use is how you use it. Find excellent conditions and give yourself opportunities to play a very aggressive game. That is how you get the money, not by learning more indices or mastering harder counts.

We seem to be going downhill fast with this thread. ZenFan requested respectfully the inside scoop on card-steering and got a standard JohN May-esque reply. The multi-deck play advice was spotty at best...

...and now this?

CRAPMaster, I think that us NOVICES AND NEOPHYTES should get better responses than these. I think I speak for all of us that we want you to not hold back on the good stuff, please.

Respectfully, z(neophyte)g

 

[zengrifter]

For instance, there are, yet again, erroneous assumptions about betting levels and heat. They assume big bets always get noticed. They don't. An associate of mine got away with a $100 to 3 x $3000 spread at a major Las Vegas strip casino for hours on end, all because some whale was in the same pit betting 3 x $10,000.

There' nothing new about playing under the 'shade' of a bigger bettor, but even neophytes know that it doesn't work nearly as well as it did 15-years ago. Seriouly, this board isn't as backward as you've been making out - please give us some new insights and energy... even if we need to re-start in the Advanced Strategies forum and learn the applied rudiments of card-steering or hole-carding.

I for one am very greatful that you are here, assuming that you are authentic, and if you are authentic, then this forum will greatly improve. Waiting. zg

 

[Automatic Monkey]

We seem to be going downhill fast with this thread. ZenFan requested respectfully the inside scoop on card-steering and got a standard JohN May-esque reply. The multi-deck play advice was spotty at best...

...and now this?

CRAPMaster, I think that us NOVICES AND NEOPHYTES shoul get better responses thaN these. I think I speak for all of us that we want you to not hold back on th good stuff, please.

Respectfully, z(neophyte)g

Yes, I can't wait to hear how and why to use KO for shuffle tracking. Sounds fascinating- what IRC do you use?

 

[zengrifter]

This was a message from a silent observer/expert that I received via PM. I am less skeptical that the expert who sent me this. I think that CRAPmaster is just holding back and testing us neophytes. z(optimisticNeophyte)g

I think it unlikely that CRAPS has ever been in a casino. This follows the typical pattern of troll. Avoid all specificities by insulting people's reading comprehension, etc. Continually post that no one else knows anything and claim that this is irrefutable 'logic.' When pressed, copy some thoughts from another forum. The idea that you can get a seat at a $10 table next to a whale and somehow reserve two extra spots for hours while betting $10 so you can spread to multiple hands is laughable. The belief that casinos do not call chex played with a $900 bet at a $10 neophyte dealer table is absurd. Chex played is not a warning of a counter. It is a notification that a $10 table has action.

 

[moo321]

Craps Master, I'd like to know more about hole-carding, as it is widely rumored that you know a lot about the subject. Specifically, what are some positions that you can spot the hole card from, and what are some good drills to practice hole-carding? If this is too sensitive, I would still love to hear what you think by PM.

And, with all due respect, if anyone disagrees with the advice, that's fine. But I just want to hear what Craps Master has to say, without other's input as to whether his advice is trustworthy or not.

 

[sagefr0g]

That really depends on your risk tolerance and goals. The main two factors on which one to choose would be your risk tolerance, and how much EV do you need to make it worth your while. If you use the 10k bankroll you are only risking a relatively small amount, but your EV may not be enough to make you want to play. If you take the 100k bank you will get enough EV, but losing the 100k might be disastrous. So I don't know, it's up to each person to decide.

Why are you asking me about this?

i asked you because i thought i sensed in your posts regarding the 30:1 spread a disregard for the points you made above. i guess i was wrong.

follow up question for you and who ever.
what ever bankroll one chooses to go with what amount percentage-wise do you think it should it be of your overall assets?

 

[NDN21]

Real Pros

I am not attacking you, Craps Master.

But I am curious to know just exactly how does talking down other people's opinions about blackjack make yours "more correct"?

Is that some of the advanced knowledge that the "real pros" are always touting? :laugh:

Again I am not attacking you.

(but I am having a bit of a laugh at your expense)

Now how about you give some of this knowledge you claim is so much better than anything anybody else has? You pick the topic and go into great detail, not just say "well it takes great mental effort".

BTW- is that you Dustin Diamond? (for those who have been watching celebrity fit club).

 

[ScottH]

There are many different kinds. A few places use the good old-fashioned bend up the corner of the holecard and look at it. A side effect of this method is that the aces and 10's are going to be bent in the opposite direction. (Ref: Clarke Cant's "Banger Play" or "Wong Warps")

A few casinos have peekers that were built into the tables as afterthoughts and require the dealer to lift the corner of the holecard into it. Once I had a dealer that was having a terrible time doing this without flashing and I exploited him until relieved.

Then there are peeking systems that fail a lot. One store's peekers used to always flash an error code when the holecard was the Ten of Diamonds under another 10, so when I saw this code I knew the dealer had 20. This store had late surrender so it was profitable knowledge. Another system had a nasty habit of reading a 4 as an ace, so the dealer would flip the card over and we all got to play against a face-up 14.

Thanks for the info. I never even thought about being prepared for anything like this since the only thing I have run into is no-peek, or they have a machine that is too easy to mess up. I'm not sure how to best explain it but it's the little black thing where they put the corner of the card in and all the tens have the corners blackened so the machine can read it as a 10. I assume that is the standard pretty much everywhere, I didn't even know there were other systems out there.

That's why I thought it was not possible to hole-card a shoe game, since it would be really hard for them to expose a card using that peeking device.

 

[Craps Master]

Just leave out the personal attacks altogether. They aren't necessary to state your position. For example, you took two shots at me in this thread. Was that really necessary? Did it help you make your point? I don't think so.

That was hardly an attack. Merely a reminder that I have nothing to gain or lose from offering an opinion about QFIT's software, you sell it in your shop and you do have something to gain from saying it's good. That's hardly a shot at you, just a reminder to the people here that you cannot be considered a neutral party, much as many of the other people QFIT listed can't be considered neutral parties either.

Just for the record, my income last year from selling blackjack books and software constituted less than 3% of my total income. It's hard to make much of an argument that I'm willing to mislead anyone for such a minor amount of money. My casino income alone dwarfs that, and my unrelated income is still the majority.

That's excellent, and all, and I'm sure the people here will definitely bear that in mind when evaluating your statements about QFIT's products and anything else. I made 0% of my income last year from selling blackjack books and software.

FWIW, I'm trying to apply the same standards on both sides of these discussions. If I overlook something that you feel I haven't handled appropriately, let me know.

No, but you should really try to think of my post about you as me having pointed out a fact that could indicate a conflict of interest (and would in any official setting). Not an attack.

Just try to stick to the issues, not the personalities or motivations.

I do, but sometimes personalities and motivations become issues, especially when people force it to be that way.

We seem to be going downhill fast with this thread. ZenFan requested respectfully the inside scoop on card-steering and got a standard JohN May-esque reply. The multi-deck play advice was spotty at best...

What more detailed information do you think is required about card steering? The answer was given in the context of an easy advanced technique for a neophyte to use that is readily available in casinos. I have explained the technique; anyone with any sense can put it to use after he's practiced the technique sufficiently. It's not very hard to know where to send the cards, be it for your hand or for the dealer's hand. The trick is mastering consistenchy in the cut. John May espouses bogus nonsense like laying the cut card flat on the deck (in a shoe game) and then rotating it 90 degrees to cut it. That's absurd and won't actually work or get you the level of accuracy practicing with a kinesthetic awareness will. To equate me to him is probably the greatest insult you could hand out, and so I'll either have a sincere apology or be ignoring you from here on out.

There' nothing new about playing under the 'shade' of a bigger bettor, but even neophytes know that it doesn't work nearly as well as it did 15-years ago. Seriouly, this board isn't as backward as you've been making out.

How are you going to tell me this board isn't as backward as I'm making it out to be when you go and post a private message where a fellow posts in disbelief that the spreads I've talked about when playing under the shade are possible? How are you going to say this when he also makes the same error of equating a 1 - 2 x 30 spread to a 1 - 90 spread. I think the majority of the people here just aren't aware of how effective tactics like this are, and they are quick to dismiss them as implausible. Not so, and that is some of the most valuable advice you're going to get out of me: learn to see past your assumptions and the disinformation you've been fed by the authorities.

I for one am very greatful that you are here, assuming that you are authentic, and if you are authentic, then this forum will greatly improve. Waiting. zg

It already has improved.

Yes, I can't wait to hear how and why to use KO for shuffle tracking. Sounds fascinating- what IRC do you use?

Try reading my post again. I don't advocate KO for shuffle tracking. I advocate Hi/Lo Lite for shuffle tracking. That said, I don't advocate shuffle tracking to anyone who hasn't reached professional level abilities. It's not a technique for junior leaguers; all the neophyte will manage to do with tracking is bust out.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...What more detailed information do you think is required about card steering? The answer was given in the context of an easy advanced technique for a neophyte to use that is readily available in casinos. I have explained the technique; anyone with any sense can put it to use after he's practiced the technique sufficiently. It's not very hard to know where to send the cards, be it for your hand or for the dealer's hand. The trick is mastering consistenchy in the cut. John May espouses bogus nonsense like laying the cut card flat on the deck (in a shoe game) and then rotating it 90 degrees to cut it. That's absurd and won't actually work or get you the level of accuracy practicing with a kinesthetic awareness will. To equate me to him is probably the greatest insult you could hand out, and so I'll either have a sincere apology or be ignoring you from here on out...

It is an insult, and I think John May is owed an apology.

 

[zengrifter]

John May espouses bogus nonsense like laying the cut card flat on the deck (in a shoe game) and then rotating it 90 degrees to cut it. That's absurd and won't actually work or get you the level of accuracy practicing with a kinesthetic awareness will. To equate me to him is probably the greatest insult you could hand out, and so I'll either have a sincere apology or be ignoring you from here on out.

I sorry. z(the sincere)g
Ps- Don't ignore me, ignore the simian wonder.

 

[sagefr0g]

..... To equate me to him is probably the greatest insult you could hand out, and so I'll either have a sincere apology or be ignoring you from here on out.
........

why are you in such a tiff about John May? actually the level of information that you put forth hasn't been any deeper than what he offered in Get the Edge at Blackjack.