S17 vs H17 ?

[itakeyourmoney]

LS sets the player free in a way S17 never can.

For me, I like how S17 allows me to play with much less fear against an Ace upcard. I also have slightly less fear against a 6 with a hand of 18, 19, 20.

On the other hand, S17 does make things slightly more dangerous if you have a stiff vs a dealer 6. Not like this is a good situation anyway though! :laugh:

I know this is a little off topic, but I was wondering what you mean by a "stiff".

 

[blackchipjim]

difference

It was kinda funny while I was playing in vegas this week my wife walked up behind me and saw me surrender. She never saw me surrender a hand and questioned the move since we don't have surrender at the joints we play at back east. When I explained it to her the dealer interjected that alot of people misplay the surrender option thus hurting themselves. It was a real pleasure to be able to surrender and helped in the overall profit for the game.

 

[creeping panther]

Rukus

kewl is right on the ball (comments that are sad, but true) regarding those who play this game seriously or who play blackjack more often than the occasional "warrior" weekend getaways an enthusiast decides to take.

Rukus

This site has alot of newbies that have seen some BJ films like 21 and think it
is all glamour and easy money, I want them to think of the other flip side of the coin. I do not want them mislead to the point of quitting college or thinking they need not a career, or a trade, or a healthy life style, a family which they can support.

I am the advocate for the opposite thinking[/I], I want them, newbies, to be aware of the dark side of that life style. That is my mission when I make these posts.

You make a comment about my playing this game seriously, you do not have to be a fulltimer to play this game seriously, or with Skillz,,,Rukus, you should know that. The finest players I have ever sat at the table with were Business men, Jet Pilots, or Professors, not full time players,,,,but the way they played was stunning,,,,they had their Priorites correct. They had the ability to excell in both worlds, taking advantage of the best that both offered, but knowing where their true best interest and the best interest of their loved ones truly existed. A hint,,it was not in the full time gambling world.

My suggestion to all newbies, get an education, a trade, work hard, and if you have the desire to hone talent and skillz to attack the BJ game, to do it only as a part time endeavor, always putting career and family first, and do so with caution.

Best Wishes
CP

 

[kewljason]

This site has alot of newbies that have seen some BJ films like 21 and think it is all glamour and easy money, I want them to think of the other flip side of the coin. I do not want them mislead to the point of quitting college or thinking they need not a career, or a trade, or a healthy life style, a family which they can support.

I have never suggusted, encouraged nor 'trumpeted' the gambling lifestyle. As a matter of fact, in the real world outside of blackjack message boards, whenever I reveal my occupation to someone, which is very infrequent, the second sentence out of my mouth is "It's not a great as it sounds, No health Insurance. No paid vacation or days off. No contributing towards retirement in the form of SS or pention". I also like to point out that if you get sick or injured as I did last year, you can go weeks or months with no money coming in, only money going out.

I am proud of my small accomplishments in blackjack and enjoy sharing my experiences with the blackjack community via message boards. (you remember that this is a blackjack message board, right, not a career counseling advise board) It gives me an outlet to discuss blackjack that I don't have in my home life as my friends are not blackjack players. Earlier this year when I decided to stop participating on this board, I received so many messages of support (including two moderators) asking me to continue posting, that I reconsidered.

 

[rukus]

CP-

I understand very well where you are coming from in trying to present a balanced view for newbies reading these pages (I used to always post that "you won't win" article from snyder's bjf here whenever a newbie came on looking for the good life).

While i do know you don't need to be a full time "pro" to have solid skills or be serious about the game (heck, I'm only currently part time), my comment regarding that was that those who are full time don't have the same luxury you or i have in choosing the best games and only pounding those games hard every once in a while. They need a larger stable of games to play so as to continue getting the hours in without over exposure. I think KJ was trying to impress this as well. Tons of part timers are absolutely solid players, few are full timers supporting themselves. The game choices between the two types will not be the same and it doesn't make any one group better/smarter than the other one.

 

[Finn Dog]

Only slightly tangential … If ALL rules and pen' are equal I will
play a shoe game with H17 and LS before a game that has S17.

Flash: is the reason why you would do so be because Surveillance would be watching the game with the greater expectation more closely?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but take a 6D game with H17, DAS (DS), RSA, and LS--I'm coming up with a 0.46 % HA.

Compare that to a 6D game with S17, DAS (DS), RSA with no LS: a 0.34% HA.

So it would seem you'd gladly give up 0.08% for the lessened heat; if so, I take it you'd still chose the H17 game even if the same store offered LS on the S17 version (for a 0.2% differential)?

Regards,

FD

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Flash: is the reason why you would do so be because Surveillance would be watching the game with the greater expectation more closely?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but take a 6D game with H17, DAS (DS), RSA, and LS--I'm coming up with a 0.46 % HA.

Compare that to a 6D game with S17, DAS (DS), RSA with no LS: a 0.34% HA.

So it would seem you'd gladly give up 0.08% for the lessened heat; if so, I take it you'd still chose the H17 game even if the same store offered LS on the S17 version (for a 0.2% differential)?

Regards,

FD

No, the reason you'd be wise to choose the H17 game is because LS is more valuable to the counter than S17 is. The problem you're having is looking at the game from the off-the-top disadvantage. The house edge is not the only concern when selecting games. In this case, H17 only has a relatively negative effect during low counts, where a counter will have theie minimum (or no) bets out. When the count is higher and you have more money on the table, LS is much more valuable. Thus, a H17 game that offers surrender is preferable to a S17 game with no surrender, all other factors (pen, heat, amount of players seated, and so on) being equal.

 

[creeping panther]

Lg

No, the reason you'd be wise to choose the H17 game is because LS is more valuable to the counter than S17 is. The problem you're having is looking at the game from the off-the-top disadvantage. The house edge is not the only concern when selecting games. In this case, H17 only has a relatively negative effect during low counts, where a counter will have theie minimum (or no) bets out. When the count is higher and you have more money on the table, LS is much more valuable. Thus, a H17 game that offers surrender is preferable to a S17 game with no surrender, all other factors (pen, heat, amount of players seated, and so on) being equal.

You are spot on.

We recently faced that dilema at a recent event, and we all choose LS rather than the same game with s-17 but no LS.

CP

 

[Finn Dog]

No, the reason you'd be wise to choose the H17 game is because LS is more valuable to the counter than S17 is.

Agreed.

But in the case where the same store offers LS on both versions of the game, I'm thinking it would be prudent (unfortunately) to select the H17 over the S17 (due to the fact the S17 would most likely be offered only in High Limit and not worth the automatic skills check).

Regards,

FD

 

[creeping panther]

Finn

Agreed.

But in the case where the same store offers LS on both versions of the game, I'm thinking it would be prudent (unfortunately) to select the H17 over the S17 (due to the fact the S17 would most likely be offered only in High Limit and not worth the automatic skills check).

Regards,

FD

All things being the same,,,jump at S-17,,it's the math baby

CP

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Agreed.

But in the case where the same store offers LS on both versions of the game, I'm thinking it would be prudent (unfortunately) to select the H17 over the S17 (due to the fact the S17 would most likely be offered only in High Limit and not worth the automatic skills check).

Regards,

FD

Right, S17 LS is obviously much better than H17 LS. This is a scenario where the HE is relevant because other rules of the game are identical. The key here is not really how the dealer handles soft 17, but whether or not LS is offered.

 

[Finn Dog]

Right, S17 LS is obviously much better than H17 LS. This is a scenario where the HE is relevant because other rules of the game are identical. The key here is not really how the dealer handles soft 17, but whether or not LS is offered.

All things being the same,,,jump at S-17,,it's the math baby

CP

Really? I'm kind of surprised by this. Anybody else?

I know mathematically choosing the S17 LS over the H17 LS is the is the obvious choice, but would you guys really recommend playing in a High Limit room with S17 LS over H17 LS on the main floor?

Seems potentially risky to me.

I know of one active playing pro who calls these situations a counter trap--and he avoids them: This is Daniel Dravot from The Color Of Blackjack:

"Management's theory is that flies will be attracted to honey and that is where they concentrate their surveillance and best pit personnel. I never play the best game in a casino. One section might have games with S17 and another with H17. I'll give up the -0.2% and play the H17 game, figuring the S17 table is a counter trap. Actually H17 is not quite as detrimental to counters, because the dealer will have less small cards to make a hand when our BB is out."


If you guys still disagree, how long would you play the said game in High Limit? (I figure you'd got to be out of there in 75 hands before they could potentially be on to you--longer if you haven't had a chance to put out your BBs.)

Best regards,

FD

 

[21forme]

I know of one active playing pro who calls these situations a counter trap--and he avoids them: This is Daniel Dravot from The Color Of Blackjack:

Is this the guy who stole Norm's work and claimed it as his own?

 

[creeping panther]

Fd

Really? I'm kind of surprised by this. Anybody else?

I know mathematically choosing the S17 LS over the H17 LS is the is the obvious choice, but would you guys really recommend playing in a High Limit room with S17 LS over H17 LS on the main floor?

Seems potentially risky to me.

I know of one active playing pro who calls these situations a counter trap--and he avoids them: This is Daniel Dravot from The Color Of Blackjack:

"Management's theory is that flies will be attracted to honey and that is where they concentrate their surveillance and best pit personnel. I never play the best game in a casino. One section might have games with S17 and another with H17. I'll give up the -0.2% and play the H17 game, figuring the S17 table is a counter trap. Actually H17 is not quite as detrimental to counters, because the dealer will have less small cards to make a hand when our BB is out."


If you guys still disagree, how long would you play the said game in High Limit? (I figure you'd got to be out of there in 75 hands before they could potentially be on to you--longer if you haven't had a chance to put out your BBs.)

Best regards,

FD

I would never give up EV for fear of a counter trap unless there was other information I was privy too. Like maybe Max and the SD at Barona:laugh:

S-17 vs H-17 is not a counter trap, it is usually a promo to the big bettors to entice them to the HL room.

Finn, if you are good, and the eye is good, you will be made in short time,,so just play, play hard, play smart, and play to win...play for blood!:devil:

CP

 

[Finn Dog]

...like everything else it's a complicated world, so many things, so many things to think about and weigh one against the other.

Very true.

Finn, if you are good, and the eye is good, you will be made in short time,,so just play, play hard, play smart, and play to win...play for blood!:devil:
CP

Well, whichever side of the S17/H17 fence one sits on, I must say this was a very inspirational pep talk. Something that Vince Lombardi might have said if he was a card counter--makes me want to hit the casino today!

Regards,

FD

 

[SleightOfHand]

Now as for the H17 vs S17 debate... I wouldn't discount the H17 factor so much in higher counts. I've seen many times where the dealer has a soft 17, hits it and then ends up with an 18 because they ultimately get an ace. If you're side counting aces, then yeah this is less of a factor, but still something to think about.

Now come on, you know thats not a good argument here

Looking here, at negative counts, there is a difference of ~.25% in advantage. In neutral counts, about .2%. Moderately high, .15%. Very high, .1-.05%

PS: This is counting with Zen

 

[Thunder]

Now come on, you know thats not a good argument here

Looking here, at negative counts, there is a difference of ~.25% in advantage. In neutral counts, about .2%. Moderately high, .15%. Very high, .1-.05%

PS: This is counting with Zen

I wasn't making the point to argue that one should take S17 over H17. Certainly not when you have LS/better penetration. I was just throwing it out there.

 

[BJBlowHole]

Alright, I've read everything very carefully, and I think it boils down to this:
Always hit a soft 17. Only hit a hard 17 if the count's really low and you've got a gun.
Or maybe I misread something.

 

[Machinist]

About friggin time!!!!!

Alright, I've read everything very carefully, and I think it boils down to this:
Always hit a soft 17. Only hit a hard 17 if the count's really low and you've got a gun.
Or maybe I misread something.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!! LMAO finally somebody gets it!!! :laugh::laugh:

I love this site!!!

Machinist

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Is this the guy who stole Norm's work and claimed it as his own?

No, no relation.