Sands, Parx, and Mount Airy

[bj21abc]

I guess so, if it means you're allowed to surrender before dinner.

There's no mention at all of surrender that I can see in their online "gaming guide" -
You could always walk up to a shift manager with a copy of the web page and ask "please sir, may I play early surrender ?"

Mount Airy Casino's website says they have early surrender. Is this true?
(Dead link: http://www.mountairycasino.com/gaming/table_games.cfm)

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I guess so, if it means you're allowed to surrender before dinner.

There's no mention at all of surrender that I can see in their online "gaming guide" -
You could always walk up to a shift manager with a copy of the web page and ask "please sir, may I play early surrender ?"

Some people mistakenly believe that early surrender means you can surrender only after your first two cards, and late surrender means you can surrender after drawing.

 

[aslan]

I can only speak for my experience at Sands, the game itself is pretty good, but the people there are something to look out for. Compulsive gamblers who will verbally tear you apart if they are having a bad night, esp if they see you doing something like doubling on soft 19 v 6 or even "worse" for them, the splitting tens.

A/8 is not an index I play, but since everyone keeps bringing it up, at what count is it +EV? Do you know by how much?

 

[aslan]

Summary of my single trip to Mount Airy:
Pros: two $10 tables during daytime, and one $10 table during nighttime; a few $15 tables.
Cons: Very bad pen (most dealers cut according to the slot marked on the shoe, which results in pen below 70%)

It is my understanding that Pennsylvania law requires 75% pen. Everyone: Is this something that the casino can be called on the carpet for?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

A/8 is not an index I play, but since everyone keeps bringing it up, at what count is it +EV? Do you know by how much?

A8 vs. 5 or 6 in a S17 game is going to go +EV around the point where you would take insurance or stand on 12 vs. 2. It's worth it, and one of those doubles where you won't be unhappy if you catch the ace rather than the 10.

 

[kewljason]

It is my understanding that Pennsylvania law requires 75% pen. Everyone: Is this something that the casino can be called on the carpet for?

I don't believe you are reading this rule (549.6-e) correctly, aslan. I understand it to say that after the player cuts the cards, the dealer takes the entire stack and aligns it against the side of the shoe, which has a mark that will allow the dealer to insert the cut card at least 1/4 of the way from the bottom of the stack. That would mean at least 25% of the cards are cut off. At least, as in minimum. So I read it that maximum penetration can be 75%. Hasn't exactly been my experience so far, nor what many other reports have stated, but we won't complain about that one. :laugh:

 

[aslan]

A8 vs. 5 or 6 in a S17 game is going to go +EV around the point where you would take insurance or stand on 12 vs. 2. It's worth it, and one of those doubles where you won't be unhappy if you catch the ace rather than the 10.

Thanks.

 

[Thunder]

Thanks.

Actually, if you're using Hi-Lo, A8 v 6 is a good double at +1. vs. 5 would be at +2.

 

[bj21abc]

Quoting from the Shufflemaster (TM) site - my bolds.

"Utilizing six touch-screen player stations embedded in a standard size blackjack table, the i-Table™ combines an intuitive electronic betting interface with a live dealer who deals the selected game from the appropriate Shuffle Master Utility Product (i.e. i-Shoe Auto intelligent card reading shoe for games like blackjack and baccarat, or the i-Deal specialty shuffler that includes card recognition).

By automating the betting process, the i-Table dramatically increases live table game security, accuracy and speed, resulting in an estimated 30% increase in rounds per hour while eliminating errors. Further, its integrated card and bet recognition functionality instantaneously records a variety of crucial table game data points including actual win/loss and handle per player while providing accurate player ratings and skill analysis.
"

Another option is play the iTable, where the cards are exposed. If you do, I suggest playing unrated.

 

[kewljason]

Actually, if you're using Hi-Lo, A8 v 6 is a good double at +1. vs. 5 would be at +2.

I double both @ +1, which is the number for both EV-max and R-A that is listed in BJA3. There are simulations that show little difference between precise EV-max indices and rounded indices and I know Monkey rounds off indices in his Ben Franklin Count, which probably puts A8 vs 5,6 in the same rounded off block as insurance and stand 12 vs 2.

 

[Thunder]

I wonder why this site has it listed differently then.. See the blackjack school link.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I double both @ +1, which is the number for both EV-max and R-A that is listed in BJA3. There are simulations that show little difference between precise EV-max indices and rounded indices and I know Monkey rounds off indices in his Ben Franklin Count, which probably puts A8 vs 5,6 in the same rounded off block as insurance and stand 12 vs 2.

It's a risky play which really should have a RA index. Risky because you are doubling a hand that already has a very high win rate.

 

[mijonah]

sands casino, bethlehem, pa

Playing under PA rules(S17,DAS,late surrender) and using perfect BS only, how strong a play is doubling on 6 vs dealer 4,5, or 6 ?

 

[blackjack avenger]

Not Even a Consideration

Playing under PA rules(S17,DAS,late surrender) and using perfect BS only, how strong a play is doubling on 6 vs dealer 4,5, or 6 ?

Using perfect BS one would not make the plays.

:joker::whip:

 

[aslan]

I don't believe you are reading this rule (549.6-e) correctly, aslan. I understand it to say that after the player cuts the cards, the dealer takes the entire stack and aligns it against the side of the shoe, which has a mark that will allow the dealer to insert the cut card at least 1/4 of the way from the bottom of the stack. That would mean at least 25% of the cards are cut off. At least, as in minimum. So I read it that maximum penetration can be 75%. Hasn't exactly been my experience so far, nor what many other reports have stated, but we won't complain about that one. :laugh:

I don't know that I personally ever read that portion of the law, just heard it reported on the Forum, but if that's the case, not good. The other rules (S17 and LS) favor the player so it seems inconsistent that the state would make a rule that actually hurts the player. Of course, drawing attention to something that is not being followed anyway may not be a good idea. I have lost my url to the law; do you or anyone have it?

 

[aslan]

Playing under PA rules(S17,DAS,late surrender) and using perfect BS only, how strong a play is doubling on 6 vs dealer 4,5, or 6 ?

That's a new one! You must mean splitting, not doubling, yes?

 

[kewljason]

Of course, drawing attention to something that is not being followed anyway may not be a good idea. I have lost my url to the law; do you or anyone have it?

http://www.pabulletin.com/secure/data/vol40/40-23/1039.html

Some of the rules are quite confusing the way they are written. (typical legalese) I am still not sure about re-splitting ace. section 549.12 (splitting pairs) section C, sub section 1 states "a player may split one more pair, if the second card dealt is identical in value to a card of the split pair for a total of three hands". There is no specification that aces can be split only once. The very next section, section C, subsection 2, states "a player splitting aces may only have one card dealt to each ace". I would take these two sections together to mean that you can resplit aces for a total of three hands but only receive 1 card on each ace, but that is not what the casinos are allowing. They are allowing aces to only be split once with one card dealt to each. Anyone else's take on this?

 

[aslan]

http://www.pabulletin.com/secure/data/vol40/40-23/1039.html

Some of the rules are quite confusing the way they are written. (typical legalese) I am still not sure about re-splitting ace. section 549.12 (splitting pairs) section C, sub section 1 states "a player may split one more pair, if the second card dealt is identical in value to a card of the split pair for a total of three hands". There is no specification that aces can be split only once. The very next section, section C, subsection 2, states "a player splitting aces may only have one card dealt to each ace". I would take these two sections together to mean that you can resplit aces for a total of three hands but only receive 1 card on each ace, but that is not what the casinos are allowing. They are allowing aces to only be split once with one card dealt to each. Anyone else's take on this?

I agree, KJ. It seems Aces are permitted to be split to three hands, not two.

Also, what do you make of this:

Whenever the cutting card is the first card in the dealing shoe at the beginning of a round of play or is reached in the deal of the cards, the dealer shall continue dealing the cards until that round of play is completed
​

Wherever I play, when the cut card is the first card for the next round, the dealer goes to the shuffle instead of dealing one more round. Above seems to say the dealer should deal one more round.

 

[kewljason]

I agree, KJ. It seems Aces are permitted to be split to three hands, not two.

Also, what do you make of this:

Whenever the cutting card is the first card in the dealing shoe at the beginning of a round of play or is reached in the deal of the cards, the dealer shall continue dealing the cards until that round of play is completed
​

Wherever I play, when the cut card is the first card for the next round, the dealer goes to the shuffle instead of dealing one more round. Above seems to say the dealer should deal one more round.

Yes, in AC and other places, if the cut card is the first card out in a round, they do not play that round. I have yet to actually see if Pa handles it the way the rule is stated, but if they do, it is actually deeper penetration than at first glance.

I remember the first time I read through the rules I was stunned at the mention of a "double shoe" in section 549.2 subsection G. To date I have not seen nor heard of any mention of use of such a shoe. I guess it is for future consideration.

However, Parx is using covered shoes with hidden discard trays, which I see no mention of in the rules. As a matter of fact section 549.2 subsection F states that "each blackjack table shall have a discard rack securely attached to the top of the dealer's side of the table. Subsection 2 goes on to say "the discard rack must have a distinct and clearly visable mark on it's side to show the exact height for a stack of cards equal to the total in use". These hidden discard racks at Parx seem to clearly violate these rules.

 

[tensplitter]

Yes, in AC and other places, if the cut card is the first card out in a round, they do not play that round. I have yet to actually see if Pa handles it the way the rule is stated, but if they do, it is actually deeper penetration than at first glance.

I remember the first time I read through the rules I was stunned at the mention of a "double shoe" in section 549.2 subsection G. To date I have not seen nor heard of any mention of use of such a shoe. I guess it is for future consideration.

However, Parx is using covered shoes with hidden discard trays, which I see no mention of in the rules. As a matter of fact section 549.2 subsection F states that "each blackjack table shall have a discard rack securely attached to the top of the dealer's side of the table. Subsection 2 goes on to say "the discard rack must have a distinct and clearly visable mark on it's side to show the exact height for a stack of cards equal to the total in use". These hidden discard racks at Parx seem to clearly violate these rules.

Unbalanced counts work wonders without a visible discard tray. The electronic tables at Parx do have visible discard trays. I'd rather have a hidden discard tray on some tables and 80-90% pen on the electronic tables. Don't press the discard tray issue or else they may suspect you're a counter and/or may half-shoe every game.