Some helpful tips for anyone planning on playing

[Coyote]

Very good advice Tulip!

Wouldn't mind bombing a table with ya sometime.

 

[blackjack avenger]

a fair statement

Other techniques can bring heavier reaction from a casino. Greed probably being a major factor on the reaction or getting discovered.

 

[bronco60]

Interesting post. There are a lot of points made that should be taken into consideration by anyone interested in branching out into more advanced strategies. Here's something I would add:

When attempting to play games requiring advanced strategies, you must consider the consequences of the casino making the play. For card counters, the fallout from a backoff may simply consist of the inability to play on a particular shift for the next few weeks. As a result, many players moving over to advanced plays from basic card counting may not fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

Many advanced strategies are not necessarily advanced in a technical capacity; they're fairly simple to understand and implement on a fundamental level. However, there are many nuances of advanced plays that will not become apparent to new players until much later in their careers, which can cause problems when a new player attempts to put their newfound knowledge to good use while ignoring (or at least not understanding) the big picture.

With many advanced strategies, if a play is made, a backoff isn't all you have to worry about. Here are some very likely scenarios:

- A brand new OSN/databse entry
- A formal 86'ing (casinos don't have a sense of humor about some advanced plays)
- Transferring heat to associates
- Games or even entire venues being fixed
- People losing their jobs

For casual or even serious recreational players, a backoff may be little more than a fun story to share with other APs later down the road, but the implications of strong games being burned out by well-meaning but inexperienced players run a lot deeper for those who count on game preservation for their livelihood.

Making advanced plays isn't just about memorizing charts and finding good game conditions — it's also about understanding how the system works and knowing how to play the games and still live another day without having your name and face on all the latest flyers and mug book entries. While new players would do well to consider advanced plays in order to expand their repertoire and subsequently become better APs, they should make sure they fully understand the consequences of their actions before they jump into anything.

Your consequences list left out:

--Casino Employee commmitting suicide (yes, it happened)

Many of the problems, particularly idiotic things like hitting hard 17, can be solved by the simple rule: don't be greedy.

Unfortunately, there are many idiot wannabe lol "APs".

 

[bronco60]

MJ, yes I have to agree with you, but for us with jobs, who work for a living 9-5 and play serious or rec. on the side, should always be attentive to the desires of those that have chosen to not have a 9-5 job, and play casino games full time, we should step aside for them, consider their needs not ours, defer to them, they are special..............................NOT:laugh:

(Ya real special, like strong arming a none Pro AP in LV into giving up money he had won because the Pro was doing this for a living and the other AP was not, gotta love those Pro's)



CP

What? It's hard to imagine somebody handing over a win on those grounds. What are the details?

 

[Southpaw]

Playing with your head right down on the table? (Like I do.) It's true that will sometimes cause a particular game (or rather, one particular dealer on that shift) to get shut down but if that is the only way for me to exploit it, so what?

Automatic Monkey, I certainly don't mean to offend you in anyway, but that is just pathetic. Please stop doing this immediately.

Let me dispel the myth that you have to sit low, sit far back, or be short to implement this strategy. You absolutely do not. If the game is good, you will see what you need to see while sitting like a normal patron.

Spaw

 

[Southpaw]

Seriously people, if you're going to play these games, please play them exactly as described by Tulip. The worst thing is that the people who are going to ruin these games are probably going to be doing so playing for nickels. They will prevent the action of those who would have been able to hit the game for black action multiple times.

One thing tulip forgets to mention has to do with the relief shift.

Do not leave the table immediately as soon as relief arrives. If your BP (assuming you're bright enough to actually be using one!) is playing 2x100, his loss in EV per round played is only $1 (You should be able to figure out which game I'm talking about here based on the loss in EV). I'm not saying to not go take a bathroom break eventually during relief, but come on--don't be terribly obvious. You can also drop your BP's bets down during relief shift, too, but maybe only drop it as low as 1/4 of your BP's normal wager.

Also, I cringe every time I see a BP and his spotter leave the table simultaneously right as relief arrives. They pretend to not know each other at the table, but they will leave the table simultaneously as soon as relief hits and magically reappear as soon as the primary returns.

Again, at least these sorts are bright enough to use a BP.

And, finally a reiteration of one of Tulip's points regarding socialization in the casino. Please stop this! I cringe when I see a BP and a spotter who pretend to not know one another at the table only to find them socializing in the casino later, albeit sometimes on a different day.

On the way to the casino, if you and your BP ride together, drop one person off on the street. When leaving, pick your partner up off the street. Do not ride together if you pretend to not know each other in the casino!

Spaw

 

[SandBaggins]

Appreciate the tips and everyone's point of view. They should greatly reduce the amount of rookie mistakes I will make along the road.

SB

 

[21forme]

If the game is good, you will see what you need to see while sitting like a normal patron.

So will the dealer at the next table and anyone else walking by.

 

[Sucker]

So will the dealer at the next table and anyone else walking by.

Incredibly; this is very seldom true! I've even seen pit bosses walk out of the pit and stand in front of the table, looking for this very thing. And STILL couldn't see it! Go figure!

 

[Southpaw]

So will the dealer at the next table and anyone else walking by.

Incredibly; this is very seldom true! I've even seen pit bosses walk out of the pit and stand in front of the table, looking for this very thing. And STILL couldn't see it! Go figure!

I agree with sucker. Distinguish between them being able to see and actually seeing it. They could, but they probably won't.

I'm not saying you're going to be able to get a perfect read while sitting like a patron, but in a good game, you'll probably get A/2-3/4-10/Paint, which carries a huge edge in the game I was referring to earlier.

So, do like your mother said and sit with good posture!

Spaw

 

[Wookets]

So will the dealer at the next table and anyone else walking by.

Like Sucker pointed out, this rarely happens. People are so mentally conditioned to not seeing it that they don't even bother to look.

 

[jaygruden]

Your consequences list left out:
--Casino Employee commmitting suicide (yes, it happened)

Why & where? What were the circumstances? For being exploited as a sloppy dealer? You can not be suggesting that an AP's actions caused a suicide. If true, this person had to have some serious mental issues long before being exploited by an AP.

 

[Sucker]

Why & where?

Wondering the same thing. When & where? I've gotten a quite a few dealers fired, and I have even gotten dealers and myself false ARRESTED (charges were quickly dropped, of course), but I've never heard of anything like THIS. (Hope it wasn't something that I did)

 

[tthree]

With the wrong ownership maybe it only appeared to be a suicide.

 

[Southpaw]

With the wrong ownership maybe it only appeared to be a suicide.

Wondering the same thing. When & where? I've gotten a quite a few dealers fired, and I have even gotten dealers and myself false ARRESTED (charges were quickly dropped, of course), but I've never heard of anything like THIS. (Hope it wasn't something that I did)

Why & where? What were the circumstances? For being exploited as a sloppy dealer? You can not be suggesting that an AP's actions caused a suicide. If true, this person had to have some serious mental issues long before being exploited by an AP.

Your consequences list left out:

--Casino Employee commmitting suicide (yes, it happened)

Many of the problems, particularly idiotic things like hitting hard 17, can be solved by the simple rule: don't be greedy.

Unfortunately, there are many idiot wannabe lol "APs".

It looks like a very useful thread is about to go in a useless direction.

Spaw

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Automatic Monkey, I certainly don't mean to offend you in anyway, but that is just pathetic. Please stop doing this immediately.

Let me dispel the myth that you have to sit low, sit far back, or be short to implement this strategy. You absolutely do not. If the game is good, you will see what you need to see while sitting like a normal patron.

Spaw

But what if the game is only mediocre, and I have to effect contortions to get it? I am not killing a good game, and in fact I am preserving the really good games by playing elsewhere.

Your concern is noted, but I don't see any benefit to avoiding contortions on a game that can only be played with contortions.

 

[Southpaw]

But what if the game is only mediocre, and I have to effect contortions to get it? I am not killing a good game, and in fact I am preserving the really good games by playing elsewhere.

Your concern is noted, but I don't see any benefit to avoiding contortions on a game that can only be played with contortions.

Automatic Monkey,

I'm glad it doesn't seem you were offended by my last post. I probably should have used other terms than the pathetic remark.

The flaw in your logic is that you're seeing this crappy game as if it was in a vacuum. By being terribly obvious, you're making it highly likely that you'll get caught. By getting caught, not only will this dealer get fixed, but it is possible the whole store will get fixed. Even worse is the possibility that other stores in contact with this store will begin to pay more attention to this particular play. Even if casino personnel already know about this play, it is a terrible thing to remind them that there are still people out there in there area making this play. Word spreads quickly about the player laying with his head on the rail that was up to no good. You will ruin other games than the one you are playing by doing this.

So, in fact by playing a decent game inconspicuously, you are better preserving games than if you were to play a crummy game while being terribly obvious.

I have associates that play the areas you play, so let's keep the games alive. They do not burn games out when they are out of town because they plan to return there many times.

Spaw

 

[Southpaw]

Here are some (harsh) words from JG that I thought were relevant to the discussion at hand:

----------------------------------------------------------------

The Five Deadly Venoms​

OK, enough is enough. I admire the effort, especially if it was motivated by the Good Book, but you guys are really schmucking things up. You guys are ruining a LOT of games across the country by getting too low, staring too obviously, and generally looking pathetic. Just because you're betting small, or using a player's card, doesn't mean you will go unnoticed. You're now playing the game within a game. More than beating the cards, you must beat the dealer; i.e., you need to seem nonthreatening to the dealer, to prevent the dealer's tightening up. I KNOW of numerous dealers nationwide who have self-corrected as a result of the pathetic attempts of rookies (6 months does not qualify as "experienced") to see. The reason this post is bitingly critical is because it's RIDICULOUS how bad you guys are, and perhaps don't even realize it.

While the Good Book mentions ruses that some players use (feigned drunkenness, sleepiness, handicap), these are not recommended. They are all unnecessary, pathetic gimmicks. If you need to resort to any of these gimmicks, you shouldn't be playing that particular game. Here is a list of five of the common, WRONG ways to go about this. If you are doing any of these things, you're doing it wrong:

1. Crouching Tiger. You scoot the chair back and then lean way forward with your head REALLY low. It's ridiculous. If an anvil falling from the ceiling can hit your butt or back, you're doing it wrong.

2. Drunken Master. You pretend to sip from your drink at the critical moment. Of course, why you have to hold your drink by the rail, unable to lift it to your face, is a mystery older than Stonehenge. When you first thought of it (or its cousin--at the critical moment, pretending to pick up and peek at your own cards as you duck your head), it probably seemed like a clever idea ("It'll just look like I'm sipping from my drink--totally natural"). Trust me, it's neither an original idea, nor a good idea. If you're using a drink as a prop, you're doing it wrong.

3. Cobra Style. You lean way back in your chair, possibly even tipping it onto its back legs, and sway as each card is dealt. If an anvil falling from the ceiling can hit your crotch or stomach, you're doing it wrong.

4. Flying Eagle. You sit back in your chair and put your knees up braced against the rail of the table. While this position is sometimes comfortable when flying JetBlue, it has no place in the casino.

5. Wounded Dragon. You use a wheelchair. It's ridiculous. A wheelchair draws attention, restricts your mobility, sometimes restricts which seat you may play at the table, etc. Whether or not there is a legal issue is secondary to the fact that using a wheelchair is a lame move.

If you are doing it right, an anvil falling from the ceiling will hit your head. I mention this because I'm about to start dropping anvils from the ceiling on you guys.

The other risk of using any of these weak methods is that other GAMBLERS are likely to pick you off. A boss may come and watch a hand or two (during which time you should not attempt to go for it AT ALL), but the other players are a threat on EVERY hand, all night long. If those players pick you off, they are a huge danger. They might rat you out to the boss or dealer, they might extort you, they might try to do what you are doing (and they, too, will look pathetic trying), they might tell others, they might lock up seats you need in the future.

I don't take issue with experts killing games by destroying them with huge wins. But I definitely take issue with the WASTING of games by players who should know better.

----------------------------------------------------------------​

Spaw

 

[Machinist]

One post

And only one with no replys...
Will the really well organized teams from Vegas please hop on the next available flight to this destination. These local guys need to be shown why a thread like this is the absolute worst sin one can make in regards to your local games and AP plays.
All you guys involved in this thread ask yourself why , why in the world would you even think to discuss this crap on an open forum??????
SPAW.....:whip::whip::whip:
I am in shock!!!!!

Machinist

 

[Southpaw]

And only one with no replys...
Will the really well organized teams from Vegas please hop on the next available flight to this destination. These local guys need to be shown why a thread like this is the absolute worst sin one can make in regards to your local games and AP plays.
All you guys involved in this thread ask yourself why , why in the world would you even think to discuss this crap on an open forum??????
SPAW.....:whip::whip::whip:
I am in shock!!!!!

Machinist

JG says it best:

"I don't take issue with experts killing games by destroying them with huge wins. But I definitely take issue with the WASTING of games by players who should know better."

I'd rather have the situation you described than a bunch of nickel players waste the game away with such tactics as described by tulip.

Spaw