starting a team

[bluewhale]

15k: Max bet of 125 (or 2x80) goes out at +4,
should equal closer to $40/hr per man. zg


.

can some of the pros please let me know what the $/hr value is. like i described, we're playing 15 min, 300 max bet, heavy wonging. rules are reg. AC rules. 75% pen. i got a number of 15-20/hr from systemstrader and zengrifter and a couple others are saying 40-45/hr. i would REEEAAALLY appreciate more opinions from ppl like ihate17 and sonny.

 

[aslan]

I'm thinking of starting a team, too

I'm wondering what seasoned players (I'm admittedly a novice) think of the following:

I'm happy with my results going it alone so far, but I would like to find a way to hedge against the inevitable run of bad luck.

What I'm thinking of doing is simply getting two other individuals up to speed on BS and counting, and then each of us going our own ways at different tables. This way I reason that we can balance each other out, and if the occasional run of bad luck strikes, it is improbable that it will affect more than one of us. Then we just pool our winnings and losses, if any, and divy it up three ways.

Of course, I will have to be convinced that each of us are on a par with the others, otherwise, the good players will end up subsidizing the bad player, cutting our profits, or even incurring a net loss.

 

[Sonny]

i got a number of 15-20/hr from systemstrader and zengrifter and a couple others are saying 40-45/hr. i would REEEAAALLY appreciate more opinions from ppl like ihate17 and sonny.

Here's what I got:

6D S17 DAS 75%

<+2=$25
+2=$50
+3=$100
+4=$100
+5=$150
+6=$300

Wong In at +2
Wong Out at -1
Hands per Hour = 17.5
EV = $19 per hour
SD = 14.3 per hour
N0 = 35,000
RoR = 14.3% ( about a 1-in-7 chance)

-Sonny-

 

[zengrifter]

Wong In at +2
Wong Out at -1
Hands per Hour = 17.5
EV = $19 per hour
SD = 14.3 per hour
N0 = 35,000
RoR = 14.3% ( about a 1-in-7 chance)

Gee, it looks pretty dismal on paper! zg

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I'm wondering what seasoned players (I'm admittedly a novice) think of the following:

I'm happy with my results going it alone so far, but I would like to find a way to hedge against the inevitable run of bad luck.

What I'm thinking of doing is simply getting two other individuals up to speed on BS and counting, and then each of us going our own ways at different tables. This way I reason that we can balance each other out, and if the occasional run of bad luck strikes, it is improbable that it will affect more than one of us. Then we just pool our winnings and losses, if any, and divy it up three ways.

Of course, I will have to be convinced that each of us are on a par with the others, otherwise, the good players will end up subsidizing the bad player, cutting our profits, or even incurring a net loss.

It's a good play for a team, on a few conditions.

First of all, I wouldn't worry too much about the skill of the players, because the difference between a great counter and a mediocre one is a lot less than the difference between a lucky and an unlucky one! (I'd rather be lucky than good, but being I'm not lucky I have to settle for the latter.) Just make sure everyone actually can count.

What you are more interested in are discipline and honesty. Discipline is important because you are going to be deciding on the game plan (spreads, games, counts) ahead of time and as long as everyone sticks to the same game plan they should be playing to around the same EV no matter how good they are. The value of honesty is obvious. Without it you are certain to lose both money and friends, and I'm not sure which is worse.

Where do you play?

 

[aslan]

What you are more interested in are discipline and honesty. Discipline is important because you are going to be deciding on the game plan (spreads, games, counts) ahead of time and as long as everyone sticks to the same game plan they should be playing to around the same EV no matter how good they are. The value of honesty is obvious. Without it you are certain to lose both money and friends, and I'm not sure which is worse.

Where do you play?

I wouldn't even consider this if I thought either of my friends might be dishonest. As for discipline, I'm guessing that once they are confident in their ability to count that will not be a problem. I plan to have practice sessions where I play dealer and they practice counting. One is already eager to do this. The other has usually been lucky using BS, but since his "bad luck" last week, I'm thinking he is ready to learn how to count.

We will be playing in AC. I'm paranoid about revealing too much detail on a public forum. Heehee...am I too paranoid?

 

[bluewhale]

I wouldn't even consider this if I thought either of my friends might be dishonest. As for discipline, I'm guessing that once they are confident in their ability to count that will not be a problem. I plan to have practice sessions where I play dealer and they practice counting. One is already eager to do this. The other has usually been lucky using BS, but since his "bad luck" last week, I'm thinking he is ready to learn how to count.

We will be playing in AC. I'm paranoid about revealing too much detail on a public forum. Heehee...am I too paranoid?

lol, well i wouldn't post a picutre of yourself here, but saying that a group of ppl will be counting in AC is not revealing anything. AC prob deals with dozens of counters on a weekly basis, so its not like they are gonna be waiting for you at the door if you announce that you're gonna try to count there.

 

[Kasi]

I'm wondering what seasoned players (I'm admittedly a novice) think of the following:

I'm happy with my results going it alone so far, but I would like to find a way to hedge against the inevitable run of bad luck.

What I'm thinking of doing is simply getting two other individuals up to speed on BS and counting, and then each of us going our own ways at different tables. This way I reason that we can balance each other out, and if the occasional run of bad luck strikes, it is improbable that it will affect more than one of us. Then we just pool our winnings and losses, if any, and divy it up three ways.

Of course, I will have to be convinced that each of us are on a par with the others, otherwise, the good players will end up subsidizing the bad player, cutting our profits, or even incurring a net loss.

I'm not a seasoned player but I think you are insane to even consider it.

Bet your own bankroll properly, and u seem to be happy with your own play, and you don't need a hedge.

There's so much more to it than BS and counting.

But don't let me stop you.

 

[EasyRhino]

Gee, it looks pretty dismal on paper! zg

Hey! That's what I make in my day job!

Course, I don't have to worry about variance, heat, ploppies, smoke, travel expenses, and I get healthcare.

 

[bluewhale]

Here's what I got:

6D S17 DAS 75%

<+2=$25
+2=$50
+3=$100
+4=$100
+5=$150
+6=$300

Wong In at +2
Wong Out at -1
Hands per Hour = 17.5
EV = $19 per hour
SD = 14.3 per hour
N0 = 35,000
RoR = 14.3% ( about a 1-in-7 chance)

-Sonny-

wow, these numbers jsut seem unreal to me. this means that your average red chipper going 5-50 is making 4 bucks an hour. that is just pathetic, MUCH less than i would have thought. and as if the 19/hr wasn't bad enough, the 14.3% RoR just makes this whole thing look REALLY bad.

 

[moo321]

I don't think those numbers are right. I'm getting more like 25 hands per hour and 1.5 units won per hour. Just from this I think you should see 18 hands per hour at +2 or better: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/6DeckText.htm

 

[zengrifter]

wow, these numbers jsut seem unreal to me. this means that your average red chipper going 5-50 is making 4 bucks an hour. that is just pathetic, MUCH less than i would have thought. and as if the 19/hr wasn't bad enough, the 14.3% RoR just makes this whole thing look REALLY bad.

I think Sonny's numbers are wrong. Maybe its the 17 hands/hr - thats how many hands would be bet, but when wonging, hands "seen" are hands "played". Seeing 100 hands/hr (maybe) but only betting on 20 or so. zg

 

[bluewhale]

you guys, this is starting to scare me. if blackjack pros can't calculate something as basic as an hourly wage based on straight counting, then i don't know what to say.

this kind of thing is the most basic of information. knowing how much you can expect to make/hr. you should all be more than a little worried if pros are having trouble determining this trivial number.

 

[zengrifter]

you guys, this is starting to scare me. if blackjack pros can't calculate something as basic as an hourly wage based on straight counting, then i don't know what to say....you should all be more than a little worried if pros are having trouble determining this trivial number.

Be afraid, be very afraid! We're not pros, we're "neophytes" - Sonny has "mucous-lined thoughts", and we're all posting at a "worthless beef parked in turd town website". What the hell did you expect?

I think it looks low, but someone else can verify. zg

 

[moo321]

Well, you can get some estimates, like from Blackjack Attack. But it won't be exactly correct, because you can't look at the bet ramp in relationship to the count. In general, back-counting 6 deck shoes with a 1-8 spread is going to be worth about 1 1/2 units an hour or so, depending on a lot of factors.

 

[Sonny]

wow, these numbers jsut seem unreal to me. this means that your average red chipper going 5-50 is making 4 bucks an hour. that is just pathetic, MUCH less than i would have thought.

Those numbers are so pathetic because I assumed 5-6 players at the table, which is why the hands per hour is so low. If you can find uncrowded tables and/or very fast dealers then your EV will improve greatly. If you can see 100 hands per hour and play a 1:8 spread at +1 and above you can bring that EV up to almost 1 unit per hour. I don't know how practical that is in AC though.

-Sonny-

 

[zengrifter]

If you can see 100 hands per hour and play a 1:8 spread at +1 and above you can bring that EV up to almost 1 unit per hour.

Not good enough, we want 2u per hour! zg

 

[Sonny]

Not good enough, we want 2u per hour! zg

That's gonna be tough. Even a 1:12 spread with Wonging In/Out at +1 will only get you 1.16 units per hour, and that assumes 100 hands per hour. You would need only one deck cut off of an 8D shoe and a 1:10 spread (+1 backcounting again) to get 1.92 units per hour. This information is all from Schlesinger's book.

-Sonny-

 

[aslan]

Retirement Plan

Hey! That's what I make in my day job!

Course, I don't have to worry about variance, heat, ploppies, smoke, travel expenses, and I get healthcare.

Hehehehe! Fortunately, I'm retired. So I already have healthcare, my buddies chip in on travel expenses, the casinos provide comp rooms, I play at nonsmoking tables, and this is one very interesting way to spend some of my retirement--oh, but I'm sure it will get boring and routine after a while, except if I am making money at it I may be able to cope. :grin:

 

[zengrifter]

You would need only one deck cut off of an 8D shoe and a 1:10 spread (+1 backcounting again) to get 1.92 units per hour. This information is all from Schlesinger's book.

That 1/2D extra, which is generally lacking in AC, is worth quite a bit!
When wonging what is the highest optimal spread? Does it taper off at 1-10, 1-15? 1-6? zg