Strange Playing Decisions & 'Heat'-induced Paranoia

TheApprentice

Well-Known Member
Here's a noob story about how I 'got heat' before I ever counted cards.

I've played BJ since a child, but BS and CC are newer endeavours. I, like many, used to believe counting meant memorizing all the played cards, etc. However, I had always played with a personal strategy that was a crude approximation of counting; I'd keep a running estimate in my head of the last 2-3 rounds, estimating a ratio of high/low cards. Several rounds where my guesses were >=75% low cards, and I'd bet higher for a few rounds, until the situation reversed itself. Never had a BR (still don't, but at least now there's potential and a source).

Since I am not in the know, I often would make plays that were NOT BS, using hunches or my high/low ratio estimating technique to guide me. From what I've learned since, I had some pretty horrible moves, and, worse, was making moves and bets (I also have always rat-holed, almost instinctively!) that were getting me what I now realize was mild Heat. Mostly it was a situation where a pit boss would come and engage me in conversation or just hang out nearby and watch for no apparent reason.

So I'm playing at an Indian Casino with 6D, ASM. H17, nDAS, $10min and doing not bad. I'm sitting at 3rd base, and the table is a friendly mix of age/race/gender. This was one of those nights where I'd already generated a little attention from a pitter and a dealer who kept making comments like "Hmmm, that's not basic strategy..." Keep in mind, I'm NOT even counting.

A new player sits done at 1st base and within only a few hands he's making comments about the play decisions I'm making and how it's my responsibility to hold up the position of 3rd base. I respond that what I do has no effect on how he plays his hand, and I've always got reasons for doing what I do. (If I was a counter back then, would've been a cover-blowing statement I know). A few more comments from him about taking the dealer's bust card, and now even the dealer is telling this guy to pipe down. He raises his voice enough to get a couple of suits from the pit over, and one starts talking to the guy and one comes to me.
"this guys's always being told not to coach other players, and he's been asked to leave before," he tells me. The guy is told to find another table, and meantime two of three other players have gotten up and left the table saying they dont need the hassle. The dealer's saying that a hotter headed person may come to blows with this character one of these times, and the Pitter gives me a free drink coupon and apoligizes.

I'm perturbed and off my game for several rounds, and think I'll have to end the session down $400, but through sheer determination I play out the rest of my night and end up +$275 (Thank you, Variance!)

Now that I'm a little more knowledgable, I've gone over the scenario many times in my head, and believe that if not for Grumpy 1st Base Man, I may have made a lot more $ that day out of luck with my primitive system, and experienced much more negative attention from the PCrew thatn I ended up getting.

Hope this has been an amusing moment. Thanks for coming to story time. Snacks and naps to follow.
 

Doofus

Well-Known Member
I learned long ago not to respond to those kinds of comments at the table. Frankly, I don't make them, either. I had an 8 unit bet out on my last trip, happily sitting on a 20. 3d base stands on his $5 bet with 15 against the dealer's 10.

You know what happened.

Dealer's hole was a five, then he drew a six, for a 21. The PB leaned into me and said in a conspiratorial tone that "even if you play your hand perfectly, some moron is gonna screw you up sometimes." To which my whispered reply was "I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who noticed that". Heh.
 
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Canceler

Well-Known Member
I’ll second that!

kewljason said:
Very good callipygian, I like that one alot. :)
It’s actually quite good. I definitely went through the first two stages. The steep drop in paranoia after “1st banning” comes because you’re not playing. You either don’t feel like going back, or are afraid to. Then it rises when you do start to play again. Then levels off when you realize you can play, but you have to make more of an effort to stay under the radar. That’s my interpretation, anyway.
 

jimmtech

Well-Known Member
Counting in St. Louis - spreading 5-60, losing bad, making index plays. 2 guys in suits come watch the table - heart beats faster. Playing 2 hands - larger bets - I hear walkie-talkies - security guards behind me! Damn, I want my money back!! The count is still high!! I hear another walkie talkie approaching - heart racing - I hope they can't see my face turning red! Is this it? Am I busted?!! Relax you A$$, nobody gives a fork about red chippers!! They came to change the padded railing on the table and needed a couple guys to help!
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
My favorite was a time when I was playing a pitch game and all of the sudden WHAM there's this giant homonculus of a guy in a dark suit standing right behind me to where I can FEEL him but not SEE him. But he doesn't say anything. I figure "well, I'm boned", and play two boneheaded plays. Still nothing. I turn to look around and it's just some weird old civilian gambler guy, who happens to be well dressed.

TheApprentice said:
I respond that what I do has no effect on how he plays his hand, and I've always got reasons for doing what I do. (If I was a counter back then, would've been a cover-blowing statement I know).
That's why you can't go wrong with a polite suggestion that the dude blow it out his ass.
 

TheApprentice

Well-Known Member
EasyRhino said:
That's why you can't go wrong with a polite suggestion that the dude blow it out his ass.
Unfortunately, I've come up with a thousand+1 ways I'd have played/spoken/acted differently that day.

I only hope that education will prove useful and I'll know next time that I'm making those kinds of plays.
The adage that you have to know the rules inside and out before you go trying to break them seems appropo.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
Don't feel the need to show off your intelligence to the other players. You hit 16 vs. 10 because "the book says to do it", and you stand because you "hit last time and lost". Self-consistency is not important - if you bet more because "the dealer busted last hand" one time and you bet more because you "have a feeling the dealer's going to bust" another time, so be it. Pretend to get annoyed when they call you on your contradictions, shutting down the conversation with "you play your game and I'll play mine." Or, use it as an excuse to Wong out.
 

Doofus

Well-Known Member
TheApprentice said:
I'm collecting strategies for my Wonging too, so thanks for that tidbit.
Why do you need an excuse? Ploppies table hop constantly. Not all of them, but many of them.

Since so far as the house is concerned you're just another losing ploppy, why do anything different than what they do? Plus, switching tables is a good way to rathole chips.
 

TheApprentice

Well-Known Member
thinking about my Wong (groan+crickets)

Doofus said:
Why do you need an excuse? Ploppies table hop constantly. Not all of them, but many of them.

Since so far as the house is concerned you're just another losing ploppy, why do anything different than what they do? Plus, switching tables is a good way to rathole chips.
By saying I'm collecting wonging strategies I mean I'm contemplating cover for backcounting, to be more specific. I've got plenty of wong-out plays to be made, but it's the backcount/wong-in that's got me thinking.

Adivce? Techniques? Anecdotes?
 

Doofus

Well-Known Member
TheApprentice said:
By saying I'm collecting wonging strategies I mean I'm contemplating cover for backcounting, to be more specific. I've got plenty of wong-out plays to be made, but it's the backcount/wong-in that's got me thinking.

Adivce? Techniques? Anecdotes?
First, avoid shops without a large number of shoes. This means you'll be spending a lot of time on the Strip.

Second, go in the evening. Graveyard shifts mean fewer shoes.

Third, get your self a real drink and stagger around like a drunk. Slur your words. Put the glass to your lips but DON'T DRINK.

Fourth, have all your money converted to chips. I would not slow a game down to cash in.

Fifth, when wonging in be prepared to lose your ass. Even in a positive shoe your edge will generally be 2%. Which means you can do like I've done, and lose 100 units in a single shoe. When you're playing green chips that's a lot of dough. If you're not capable of continuing to put multi-unit bets out in the circle or circles time after time, so long as the shoe stays positive, then you have no business counting cards.
 

TheApprentice

Well-Known Member
backcount cover

(While I'm still in the gambler/AP transition), I do not recall as a plop ever standing around for more than a few seconds deciding if I wanted to play at a table with an open seat. I can see a gambler trying to 'get a feeling' for a table, but how often would s/he stand there watching as long as an AP would need to stand there to establish a count?
I've gotten the blessing from my wife that she will involve herself as far as the point of going to the casino with me, but she wants no more to do with my game than that, so I've planned on using her as my reason for loitering at the table.
 

Doofus

Well-Known Member
You want crowded conditions, which is the point of playing in the evening. But no so crowded as to fill the tables completely. Which means you'll probably be looking at the $25 minimum bet shoes.

Look around the next time you're in your target casino. I'll bet you will see quite a few people standing around looking to see if the dealer is "hot" or not. Only 1 out of 100 of those people standing around is a backcounter.
 

TheApprentice

Well-Known Member
Well,

next time you're there, looking at those 100 people, I'll be one of them.
Thanks for the list of tips -- good stuff.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
TheApprentice said:
I do not recall as a plop ever standing around for more than a few seconds deciding if I wanted to play at a table with an open seat.
It shouldn't take you more than a few seconds to count up a table and see that the true count is +1 with less than a deck played (1 deck played will turn 75% penetration into 60% penetration on a six-deck shoe, so unless you're in a place with amazing penetration).

Always have some chips with you, although I advocate having some cash as well. Rifling through your wallet to find bills is a great excuse for loitering to see one more hand before joining.
 

bj bob

Well-Known Member
Doofus said:
I learned long ago not to respond to those kinds of comments at the table. Frankly, I don't make them, either. I had an 8 unit bet out on my last trip, happily sitting on a 20. 3d base stands on his $5 bet with 15 against the dealer's 10.

You know what happened.
That scenario may not have been as dumb as it first looks. Since you had an 8 unit bet out, chances were that the count may have also been high enough for that "idiot" to stand on 15 v.10. I certainly would have, although I wouldn't have a min. bet out at that point.
 

TheApprentice

Well-Known Member
Wong way to Wong (are these puns totally used up by now or what)

callipygian said:
It shouldn't take you more than a few seconds to count up a table and see that the true count is +1 with less than a deck played (1 deck played will turn 75% penetration into 60% penetration on a six-deck shoe, so unless you're in a place with amazing penetration).

Always have some chips with you, although I advocate having some cash as well. Rifling through your wallet to find bills is a great excuse for loitering to see one more hand before joining.
Maybe I need to review my understanding of backcounting....
unless one sees all the cards from the beginning of the shoe, there's no way to accurately get a count on a table you just walked up on, correct?
...and if one does start BCing from the beginning of the shoe, it may take a while before it's a Wong-in appropriate count, right?

What am I missing about the concept?
 

Doofus

Well-Known Member
TheApprentice said:
Maybe I need to review my understanding of backcounting....
unless one sees all the cards from the beginning of the shoe, there's no way to accurately get a count on a table you just walked up on, correct?
...and if one does start BCing from the beginning of the shoe, it may take a while before it's a Wong-in appropriate count, right?

What am I missing about the concept?
Yes, you start counting from the beginning of the shoe. Don't try to start counting in the middle, you have no idea of what's already in the discard rack. If you are seriously backcounting, I would not sit down to play until the true count is +2.
 
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