BJgenius007
Well-Known Member
17 v A is never a LS unless you play H17, which is not a good game.21forme said:
The dealer who wouldn't let me hit!
- Thread starter Thunder
- Start date
the longest dealer pause I ever had
My first trip to LV about 10 to 15 years ago I encountered the H17 rule for the first time. I consulted my reference material and confirmed my instinct to avoid this game so for 3 days I played at either 1 of 2 tables that still had S17. I was playing a 50% press on wins when I felt the time was right to press my bets(I was recently converted from craps so I was still using the betting scheme that proved so profitable given that I was trained in controlling dice way before the goldentouch guys made what I was doing so well known. I later changed to a 30% press for blackjack given the danger of breaking your progression on a double bet loss). I was using my count system but had just discovered that it was better known as hiopt so I was now armed with all the actual tc strategy numbers for all the hands in blackjack(I just made intuitive guesses prior to this revelation that the count I had thought up had the optimal play tc numbers calculated with certainty. My guesses were surprisingly accurate for the optimal play on most hands which was what I was striving for(optimal play rather than player advantage as I was still a progression bettor)).
Anyway on the third day I was on a huge win run, starting at $10 and after 14 wins without a loss was at a bet of almost $1000. I was dealt a pair of eights against the dealers 10. I was aware of the danger of losing a double bet which would eat up almost all my winnings on that progression. The count was close to the cusp of surrender being the proper move so I figured that was the best decision in this situation. The dealer stands there staring at me for the longest time saying with her eyes,"youve been playing flawless blackjack for 3 days you must know splitting your eights is the right play". Finally I break the silence and say,"Look I know the right long run move is to split. This is a money management decision, I cannt afford to lose double my bet. Besides I may never make a bet this big again so overall averages arent really applicable". She looks toward the pit boss who walks and watches me surrender. As the cards fell I would have won both hands but given the situation Im confident I made the smart move. That evening I returned to the pit to play and the pitboss approached me and informed me that they reviewed my play I hadnt lost a session in the 3 days Id been there(not news to me). He politely informed me I was welcome to play any other games but not blackjack. I told him you must have seen Im a progression bettor why cannt I play. He told me that was why I was not being blackbooked, but they werent comfortable with my skill level.
I spent the next 24 hours playing craps.We went to the strip and played at the Four Queens and Binions. I had switched to blackjack because the money swings in craps were to great so we were seeking the low limit tables. The Four Queens was relatively uneventful but at Binions I was tearing up the felt. My dice control strategy was to get the dice to land dead or tumble(lower the probability of two sides of each die to come up and set them so the 4 sides that had a higher probability only included 2 sevens but lots of sixes and eight totals). I found I was either horrible or great at control on any given trip and also from different positions around the craps table without much in between. This allowed me to bet either the 6 and 8 and make big money or bet against me and make small money depending on the situation. I usually only bet on me and my mentor(who was even better than I was) because of the aforementioned swings when I bet on random shooters. This probably helped raise red flags in the pit. Anyway after three big rolls from my favorite position at the craps the Binions pit crew told me I was banded from shooting the dice and the stickman never offered them again. We left thanking the pit for making us leave before we started losing.
We decided we wanted to eat dinner at the Frontier so we decided to earn it comped at their craps table. I got my favorite position and picked up were I left off and about a half hour into my roll the pit told me I could throw the dice but not set them. I pointed out that I was the fastest at the table at throwing the dice after the stickman gave them to a shooter(I learned a long time prior AP at the craps table receives alot less pressure from the pit if you are really fast at your dice setting). Well after the discussion they slid me the dice with seven total showing!!!! This is a nono for the stickman and always has him quickly pull the dice away, roll the seven over and re-present the dice with a different total showing. NOT THIS TIME. They looked to see what I would do. I stared the stickman down, pausing for a while then moved the seven off(to my usual set) and tossed the dice. Anyone familiar with what happens when the pit disrupts the rhythm of a shooter on a roll can guess, I sevened out. We asked about the comp as we were leaving but our request was denied to put it politely. A high roller at the other end of the cashing in a huge stack of grey chips($5000) called me over and asked how many people I would be dining with. When I replied a party of 6 he gave me a $500 chip and said dont forget the champagne recommending Tattinger. Then he gave me a telephone number and asked me when I was leaving and requested a call if I was going to play craps again.
After 3 near misses with the blackbook I decided to sit on my winnings until we moved to the Green Valley Ranch the following day. They only offered H17 blackjack so I looked at my reference material to see how I needed to modify my play. Basically hit 17 sometimes against a 6 or ace. I learned how much this hurt the player. I didnt win a session at the H17 tables. The funny thing was while most of the time I would stand on 17 vs dealer 6 or ace when I hit I always seemed to pull a 4. Boy, the pit started examining the cards trying to figure out how I seemed to know a 4 was coming. Im thinking great now Im losing and the pits red flags are still going up. I decided I better go back to craps but that didnt help. I just couldnt find the zone so I figured its nice out by the pool, why dont I spend the last 2 days at the pool and go back to maryland a big winner.
My first trip to LV about 10 to 15 years ago I encountered the H17 rule for the first time. I consulted my reference material and confirmed my instinct to avoid this game so for 3 days I played at either 1 of 2 tables that still had S17. I was playing a 50% press on wins when I felt the time was right to press my bets(I was recently converted from craps so I was still using the betting scheme that proved so profitable given that I was trained in controlling dice way before the goldentouch guys made what I was doing so well known. I later changed to a 30% press for blackjack given the danger of breaking your progression on a double bet loss). I was using my count system but had just discovered that it was better known as hiopt so I was now armed with all the actual tc strategy numbers for all the hands in blackjack(I just made intuitive guesses prior to this revelation that the count I had thought up had the optimal play tc numbers calculated with certainty. My guesses were surprisingly accurate for the optimal play on most hands which was what I was striving for(optimal play rather than player advantage as I was still a progression bettor)).
Anyway on the third day I was on a huge win run, starting at $10 and after 14 wins without a loss was at a bet of almost $1000. I was dealt a pair of eights against the dealers 10. I was aware of the danger of losing a double bet which would eat up almost all my winnings on that progression. The count was close to the cusp of surrender being the proper move so I figured that was the best decision in this situation. The dealer stands there staring at me for the longest time saying with her eyes,"youve been playing flawless blackjack for 3 days you must know splitting your eights is the right play". Finally I break the silence and say,"Look I know the right long run move is to split. This is a money management decision, I cannt afford to lose double my bet. Besides I may never make a bet this big again so overall averages arent really applicable". She looks toward the pit boss who walks and watches me surrender. As the cards fell I would have won both hands but given the situation Im confident I made the smart move. That evening I returned to the pit to play and the pitboss approached me and informed me that they reviewed my play I hadnt lost a session in the 3 days Id been there(not news to me). He politely informed me I was welcome to play any other games but not blackjack. I told him you must have seen Im a progression bettor why cannt I play. He told me that was why I was not being blackbooked, but they werent comfortable with my skill level.
I spent the next 24 hours playing craps.We went to the strip and played at the Four Queens and Binions. I had switched to blackjack because the money swings in craps were to great so we were seeking the low limit tables. The Four Queens was relatively uneventful but at Binions I was tearing up the felt. My dice control strategy was to get the dice to land dead or tumble(lower the probability of two sides of each die to come up and set them so the 4 sides that had a higher probability only included 2 sevens but lots of sixes and eight totals). I found I was either horrible or great at control on any given trip and also from different positions around the craps table without much in between. This allowed me to bet either the 6 and 8 and make big money or bet against me and make small money depending on the situation. I usually only bet on me and my mentor(who was even better than I was) because of the aforementioned swings when I bet on random shooters. This probably helped raise red flags in the pit. Anyway after three big rolls from my favorite position at the craps the Binions pit crew told me I was banded from shooting the dice and the stickman never offered them again. We left thanking the pit for making us leave before we started losing.
We decided we wanted to eat dinner at the Frontier so we decided to earn it comped at their craps table. I got my favorite position and picked up were I left off and about a half hour into my roll the pit told me I could throw the dice but not set them. I pointed out that I was the fastest at the table at throwing the dice after the stickman gave them to a shooter(I learned a long time prior AP at the craps table receives alot less pressure from the pit if you are really fast at your dice setting). Well after the discussion they slid me the dice with seven total showing!!!! This is a nono for the stickman and always has him quickly pull the dice away, roll the seven over and re-present the dice with a different total showing. NOT THIS TIME. They looked to see what I would do. I stared the stickman down, pausing for a while then moved the seven off(to my usual set) and tossed the dice. Anyone familiar with what happens when the pit disrupts the rhythm of a shooter on a roll can guess, I sevened out. We asked about the comp as we were leaving but our request was denied to put it politely. A high roller at the other end of the cashing in a huge stack of grey chips($5000) called me over and asked how many people I would be dining with. When I replied a party of 6 he gave me a $500 chip and said dont forget the champagne recommending Tattinger. Then he gave me a telephone number and asked me when I was leaving and requested a call if I was going to play craps again.
After 3 near misses with the blackbook I decided to sit on my winnings until we moved to the Green Valley Ranch the following day. They only offered H17 blackjack so I looked at my reference material to see how I needed to modify my play. Basically hit 17 sometimes against a 6 or ace. I learned how much this hurt the player. I didnt win a session at the H17 tables. The funny thing was while most of the time I would stand on 17 vs dealer 6 or ace when I hit I always seemed to pull a 4. Boy, the pit started examining the cards trying to figure out how I seemed to know a 4 was coming. Im thinking great now Im losing and the pits red flags are still going up. I decided I better go back to craps but that didnt help. I just couldnt find the zone so I figured its nice out by the pool, why dont I spend the last 2 days at the pool and go back to maryland a big winner.
At the time I could only find games(I didnt look real hard) that had the same rules as the other table except H17 instead of S17 at the first casino(the game I had such good success at was 6D, DAS, split to 4 hands(if I remember right), LS, BJ3:2, dont remember penetration but it was about 15 years ago maybe longer(my brain doesnt process the passage of time well at all. If I say something happened 1 or 2 years ago its usually more like 5 or 10 when someone who has that skill is there to correct me) so I assume it was great by todays standards. At Green Valley it was 8D, no surrender, along with H17 at all tables(I didnt consider the high roller pit if they had one). Im not sure but I think H17 was in its infancy(I didnt know it existed in LV being an AC player). I just avoided the game when possible because there were better games out there but not at Green Valley they told me there was only 1 option for blackjack rules in their store.
Had a funny experience with hot soft 18 against 10 yesterday. Twice I had soft 18 against 10 and 2 dealers went right by me and had to pound the table to get them to give me my card.
The best though was I'm playing with this arrogant woman dealer who had no clue but was telling everyone how to play. Tallking everyone out of hitting 12 against 2 etc cause it changes the cards. So the kid I'm sitting next to has soft 18 against 10 says what to do and I say bang it every time, she is all over it and tells him not to so he chickens out. He is on great run with a big bet. So myself and the next guy have 20's so no hits. She of course flips the 3 and another card to get 21 and wipe out the table. I just look at her and she tells everyone he made the right move that was just a fluke
The best though was I'm playing with this arrogant woman dealer who had no clue but was telling everyone how to play. Tallking everyone out of hitting 12 against 2 etc cause it changes the cards. So the kid I'm sitting next to has soft 18 against 10 says what to do and I say bang it every time, she is all over it and tells him not to so he chickens out. He is on great run with a big bet. So myself and the next guy have 20's so no hits. She of course flips the 3 and another card to get 21 and wipe out the table. I just look at her and she tells everyone he made the right move that was just a fluke
paddywhack
Well-Known Member
I didn't even bother. MAJOR EYE-STRAINShoofly said:
paddywhack
Well-Known Member
So good you had to say it twice??pogostick said:
I made the changes you all seemed to want. Im not sure what difference it makes.
I guess its like the guy who thinks a dozen eggs at a certain price is a ripoff but 12 at the same price is a bargain.
Ill try to remember to add in lots of empty space in the future so the forum nazis dont get upset. :whip:
How about throwing in a comment about the content along with the critique of form. This was my first 9 day gambling excursion and had lots of lessons about flying under the pits radar. And being allowed to play without constraint(not an issue in AC were you might catch heat but they always have let me play). I left out alot of very interesting details like my mentor winning first place in a mega blackjack tournament(The prize was $150,000) in the interest of staying on topic and believe it or not brevity.
I guess its like the guy who thinks a dozen eggs at a certain price is a ripoff but 12 at the same price is a bargain.
Ill try to remember to add in lots of empty space in the future so the forum nazis dont get upset.
:whip:How about throwing in a comment about the content along with the critique of form. This was my first 9 day gambling excursion and had lots of lessons about flying under the pits radar. And being allowed to play without constraint(not an issue in AC were you might catch heat but they always have let me play). I left out alot of very interesting details like my mentor winning first place in a mega blackjack tournament(The prize was $150,000) in the interest of staying on topic and believe it or not brevity.
OK, here are some comments on content.tthree said:
1. Progressions don't work.
2. If you couldn't afford to double your bet, you couldn't afford to make the original bet.
3. You said "They only offered H17 blackjack so I looked at my reference material to see how I needed to modify my play. Basically hit 17 sometimes against a 6 or ace." I would love to comment on that, but I have no idea what it means.
After almost 2 decades of playing since my toddler years of gambling represented by my post I totally agree with your first 2 points. You might have picked up on this but it was subtly stated, " I was still using this betting scheme". I guess I never stated I abandoned it later(a long long time ago) and after saying I modified it to fit blackjack perhaps you assumed I still use such a system. Anyway your 1st 2 points are spot on.
What I meant about the H17 strategy changes was; the only change in strategy, after a once over of my reference material, was to hit more often against a dealer 6 or ace based upon the count and your card total. This was the only time Ive faced this rule(Ive had another option at every other casino and after the Green Valley experience Ive been leery of trying it again). I would love some advice from those who feel it is a good game as to what rules I should look for to compensate for this rule's disadvantage along with the play modifications that help make it a playable game. I hear this rule is taking over AC (Ive been stopping short in delaware and pennsylvania now that they have table games).
What I meant about the H17 strategy changes was; the only change in strategy, after a once over of my reference material, was to hit more often against a dealer 6 or ace based upon the count and your card total. This was the only time Ive faced this rule(Ive had another option at every other casino and after the Green Valley experience Ive been leery of trying it again). I would love some advice from those who feel it is a good game as to what rules I should look for to compensate for this rule's disadvantage along with the play modifications that help make it a playable game. I hear this rule is taking over AC (Ive been stopping short in delaware and pennsylvania now that they have table games).
Thanks gamblor and shoofly. I finally found my old book(The Worlds Greatest Blackjack Book) which was chosen simply because it had the strategy indices for the counting system I had cooked up on my own. The counting system was so logical I knew I would find a book with the indices for it. This is the one I found.
It donates less than a page to the H17 rule and doesnt mention any double modifications. I guess I can ignore my books advice on the whole topic as they are probably the most important play changes. That revelation alone was worth alot. I will find a new source before I try to play any H17 variations. Still interested in what rules help to make up for this disadvantage. Wouldnt know a good H17 game if I saw it. Also a recommendation on reference material would be appreciated.
It donates less than a page to the H17 rule and doesnt mention any double modifications. I guess I can ignore my books advice on the whole topic as they are probably the most important play changes. That revelation alone was worth alot. I will find a new source before I try to play any H17 variations. Still interested in what rules help to make up for this disadvantage. Wouldnt know a good H17 game if I saw it. Also a recommendation on reference material would be appreciated.
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
"Wouldnt know a good H17 game if I saw it.
Also a recommendation on reference material would be appreciated."
A good H17 game permits Late Surrender.
A very good H17 game adds ReSplit Aces (RSA) as well.
With neither, you are looking for >90% penetration.
Your plays against the dealer 6 are unlikely to change,
but your plays against the dealer Ace are
e.g. your doubling 11 vs. Ace is much easier to do.
Also a recommendation on reference material would be appreciated."
A good H17 game permits Late Surrender.
A very good H17 game adds ReSplit Aces (RSA) as well.
With neither, you are looking for >90% penetration.
Your plays against the dealer 6 are unlikely to change,
but your plays against the dealer Ace are
e.g. your doubling 11 vs. Ace is much easier to do.
21gunsalute
Well-Known Member
I had a dealer in Vegas recently who wouldn't let me color up. I had $500 in red chips and when I tried to color them up he pushed them back at me and said in his broken English/oriental dialect "You color up when you done playing!" I tried again repeatedly and kept getting the same response. He was running low on red chips too.