The fine line between a helpful dealer and a cheat?

[halcyon1234]

I've been pondering something lately. Where exactly is the line drawn-- or at least where would you draw the line-- at getting help from a dealer. Say a friend of yours is a dealer, and knows you and wants to give you an advantage. I can think of several things a dealer can do to give you just that, but I wonder which ones are good (ethical, allowed, safe, whatever your adverb).

Obviously, at least to me, there's a lot the dealer can do that they shouldn't, because it would give you an advantage you normally would't have. Flashing their hole card, dealing seconds, base dealing, etc.

But then there are lots of things procedural that a dealer can do that should be fine, because (for the most part) it's their up to their discression. The most inoxuous one I can think of is pace. Your friend should know if you prefer a blinding fast game for the most hands per hour, or a slow leisurly game to help you keep the count proper.

Perhaps a bit harer to do, depending on the casino's regulations, would be adjusting the penetration. From what I understand, dealers have a bit of leeway with pen. That's why some are 75%, some are 80%. But what's to say your friendly dealer can't just cut to 90 or 95%? It's not beyond the realm of possiblity that this could happen anyways, and it isn't giving you anything you couldn't get without them around.

Moving further down the "questionable" scale, there's their discretion at calling out your bets. They could all together NOT call "Checks Play", keeping the heat off of you. Or at least you can work out your spread with them before hand. Then put out a fake large bet-- say 3 units. Dealer calls "Check play". Next "big" bet of 3U, same thing-- a few more times until the pit now things you're a 3U player. Next time you bet big, you put out your real 20 unit bet.

Though it's definately a cheat for the dealer to intentionally flash you their hole card, what about the bottom card of a shuffled shoe? Again, something that often gets flashed in a normal shuffle anyways, and if you're a card sequencer, it's ultra useful information.

Next you get into the very questionable practice of intentionally messing up a procedure in a way that might be interpreted as a mistake. Pushing a multi-card 20 vs. a dealer 21. Mispaying a bizzare bet that gets a Blackjack.

Then you start to get into the collaborative cheating. Hole card flashing and dealing seconds. But something else too: having the dealer intentionally mess up your hand signal. Let's say you get dealt a 15. You wave it off for a stand. Your friend hits it anyways. If the card is good, you let it pass. If the card is bad, you make a fuss and have the pit take away the card for whatever effect they rule on (burn the card, take a different hit, etc).

Personally, for me, I would be fine with getting deeper pen, help covering my "check plays", and (if I was a sequencer), not so much an intentional flash but more less vigilant handling of the cut card at the bottom of the deck. I see those as all dealer discretion anyways. (Of course, who knows how the casino would see if if they knew !)

What about you guys? Draw the line anywhere? Only wrong if you get caught? Any other ideas?

 

[tribute]

You are both taking a big risk if the dealer uses any method to intentionally give you an advantage. Sometimes I use dealer sloppiness to my advantage, such as flashing the hole card. If the dealer pays me incorrectly, I will speak up. Cheating by dealers or players is another issue and it is dealt with very seriously by the casino. Most of what you describe would be cheating, as I understand.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

What about you guys? Draw the line anywhere? Only wrong if you get caught? Any other ideas?

Does he visually check for blackjack? How about squinting his left eye if he has a 9 or 10 under his upcard, squinting his right eye if he has a 7 or 8, and doing neither if he has a stiff? Let's see the camera pick that one up!

Dirty bridge players have a lot of tricks for giving undisclosed signals to their partner while still using the authorized bridge bidding vocabulary, e.g. saying "two no trump" can have three different meanings depending on whether you accent the "two", the "no", or the "trump." It's unethical and takes the sport out of the game, but it's done.

We don't play blackjack for sport. I'd do it if the risk were low enough and the profit for my partner was sufficient to cover the risk he is taking.

 

[sagefr0g]

......
What about you guys? Draw the line anywhere? Only wrong if you get caught? Any other ideas?

any sort of collusion with the dealer is where i'd draw the line. probably a law against it just about anywhere is my guess.

 

[EasyRhino]

If you like your friend, and if your friend likes his job, then I wouldn't recommend playing at his table. If you get made as an AP, then it could be bad for him.

But halcyon, your interpretation of the line seems to match mine. You'd think "checks play" would be one of those things that's fixed at a table, but I've seen variation between dealers. Go figure.

 

[moo321]

If your friend will deal deeply, deal fast, not call "checks play", and let you know when there's heat, those are all safe and legal. Flashing a holecard, or intentional procedural errors are too dangeous and will get picked up.

 

[Mimosine]

You'd think "checks play" would be one of those things that's fixed at a table, but I've seen variation between dealers. Go figure.

was at a table recently where two of the 6 people at it were getting "checks play" or "table max" being called out left and right. with some time, all the dealers stopped calling it out, or would be selective when they did. my play went completely unnoticed....

also some dealers i've seen call out "checks play" a little less strenuously than they do for "1 black out" or "change 100" the latter cases they wait for a the ok from the pit, but for "checks play" they seldom wait or it seams seldom say it loud enough for anyone to hear..... this latter example might be something for halcyon to explore further at their casino of choice.

 

[ScottH]

was at a table recently where two of the 6 people at it were getting "checks play" or "table max" being called out left and right. with some time, all the dealers stopped calling it out, or would be selective when they did. my play went completely unnoticed....

also some dealers i've seen call out "checks play" a little less strenuously than they do for "1 black out" or "change 100" the latter cases they wait for a the ok from the pit, but for "checks play" they seldom wait or it seams seldom say it loud enough for anyone to hear..... this latter example might be something for halcyon to explore further at their casino of choice.

They usually stop calling it out once the pit is aware of your play. The first couple times they call it out to get the pits attention, and once they know you occassionally bet whatever it is that requires the "checks play", they don't need to keep calling it out every time.

 

[21forme]

Funny thing about "checks play" is they call it out for 1 black chip, but I can have a big pile of greens and they don't call it.

 

[rogue1]

the pen

if you can consistently get excellent pen that's all you need to win win win.

 

[EasyRhino]

Funny thing about "checks play" is they call it out for 1 black chip, but I can have a big pile of greens and they don't call it.

Yeah, sometimes the dealers are bad at math. And 2x$75 hands might avoid a call, while 1x$100 would get it.

But then there's my favorite: "Green action!"

 

[tribute]

Dealer announcements

I was at a table where the dealer repeatedly alerted the pit for "Black Action" and "Checks Play". She laughed when I placed 4 reds and yelled "Red Action"!

 

[Mimosine]

I was at a table where the dealer repeatedly alerted the pit for "Black Action" and "Checks Play". She laughed when I placed 4 reds and yelled "Red Action"!

hahahaha, i'm going to use that!

 

[MEDITANK]

someday, hopefully soon, I will get my first PURPLES PLAY! :gaga:

 

[ScottH]

Funny thing about "checks play" is they call it out for 1 black chip, but I can have a big pile of greens and they don't call it.

Yeah, it makes no sense. I was at a casino that was 3-50 limits. I would bet one green chip and they would call "green action", but if I bet 9 red chips they wouldn't say a thing...

 

[EasyRhino]

To be fair, "black action", "purple action", and yes, "green action", mean slightly different things than checks play. Some casinos spend a lot more time accounting for black chips (example, one local joint, any time black chips are cashed, the cashier calls over to the pit to confirm the number of chips). So the "black action" lets the floorman know that she's going to have a lot more tracking homework to do at this table, since they're not just being used for coloring up any more.

"Checks play" is just a more generic indication that there's a lot of dough on the table.

Reminds me of a time when I sat down next to a high roller (who, I found out later, was counting). Anyway, multiple blacks were getting tossed around every hand, and after a while, the dealer looked at the PC and pleaded "can I please stop saying 'black action'?".

 

[halcyon1234]

Red action: lol. Now that's sweaty.

Thanks for the feedback. It's just something that popped into my head (as most things do =) ). Though the more I think about it, the more I'd probably go for the "play fast, play deep, don't get the pit involved" method.

I do like the idea of a squint-at-the-blackjack check. Though any place that'd let the dealer manually check the cards these days is either so high-roller that they'd notice, or so cheap-ass-to-not-buy-the-equipment that they'd freak out if I played with green chips. =)

 

[EasyRhino]

You know, then only place I've played at with old-school blackjack peeking was the Golden Gate in downtown Vegas. And it's a tiny little dump with a crappy game. And yet I was at a table where the average bet size was about $150. Saturday nights are weird.

 

[Cardcounter]

Checks play!

The thing about checks play is you could bet 20 red chips on one hand the dealer is not required to call checks play but if you bet 1 black chip the dealer has to call out checks play. Same thing with green you could bet 4 green chips and the dealer does not have to call out checks play but might have to with 1 black chip. If your normal bet is black they might call black action once and then not call it again for the whole session. Checks play is just to get the pit boss attenion about how much you are betting so they can give you better comps. If you play in a casino that has $500 and $1,000 or even $10,000 or $25,000 chips black is a smaller chip and the dealers won't think that much about a black chiper. However if the biggest chip that the casino has is a $100 black chip than the casino will think a lot of black chipers.

 

[dacium]

I like it when they say red action sarcastically...

At one casino here $10 in the minimum, but to encourage more new players they lowered it to $5 for a while during peak periods and had heaps of extra staff around to explain the game to people. obviously it made it better for counting because you could bet min $5 instead of min $10 when the count wasn't so good. So when I was spreading, they dealer started calling green/black actions as I spread, and to please the noobs, he would announce red actions if everyone was only playing red Now they had $2.50 purple chips and everyone at the table had some, so we played them all and he didn't know what color to announce because purples is the $500's as well.