The fine line between a helpful dealer and a cheat?
- Thread starter halcyon1234
- Start date
EdgeCapper
Member
If your winning, I would think that a $5 toke for every $200 profit is more than fair. If your at a place like El Cortez, it doesnt make a differance, but the casino I am at has a good game, but the house wants us to cut between 55-65% so the it makes a differance for the dealer to add another 20 cards or so. I understand that betting consistantly with the dealer can take away your expected return from counting, but when you are winning a significant amount, it only makes sense to throw a chip here and there, espectially after winning a hand that would have never been dealt. If you bet an odd number, say $35 and hit a blackjack, the $2.50 should be given back to the dealer. If you place it on top of your bet, I will be insulted.zengrifter said:
Here is the best toke advice I can think of for a player trying to take advantage of a game... To instantly earn favor in the eyes of your dealer, start the first deck off by tipping a dollar per hand until you lose two in a row. It will be a long lasting influence even if only $2. The dealer will remember that you DO tip sometimes and will be much more tolerable of your future play and you will be able to get away with more than your average "stiff". Just use common sense while playing and put yourself in their shoes. How long would it take for you to deal to somebody who is winning before you would expect some show of appreciation? When you notice the next set of dealers walking in the pit, start tipping again. One of the first things I do when I approach the table is check out how much the previous dealer made and see if anyone is betting for them(Helps me save energy on entertaining the players for when it is going to payoff ). Dealers usually communicate in some way as to who is taking care of them and who is not.
The advice I just made is probably your cheapest way to buy a good dealer unless, like Zengrifter, you reveal your identity to me as one of blackjacks greatest players and become my personal mentor and reveal to me the underground world of advantage play. I don't know about you guys, but I would much rather have a dealer that wants us to win rather than somebody who is determined to take every last dollar.
True,but its so much fun beating the dealer who wants you to lose.I've only had that happen once,as I generally will walk out on a grumpy dealer.One night at Terribles,it was pretty full and I was enjoying the company at a table when this really miserable guy showed up to deal.I was explaining to some first time visitors how you had to walk thru the entire casino because sometimes a BJ table in the back might be better than the ones up front. The dealer interrupted me to ask if I thought the slots closest to the doors paid more,as well.He told the people that the myth of casinos hiding good games was just that,and they would be wasting their time following my advice.He said he'd been a dealer on the Strip for over twenty years.I commented that he must have been really good at it,seeing he was doing a graveyard at Terribles.
It was on. He wanted to beat me even more than I wanted to kick his ass.I was at 3rd base,and everytime it happened,he'd say I took his bust card or I should have hit to save the table.Sadly,I just managed to about break even on his twenty minute stretch.
It was on. He wanted to beat me even more than I wanted to kick his ass.I was at 3rd base,and everytime it happened,he'd say I took his bust card or I should have hit to save the table.Sadly,I just managed to about break even on his twenty minute stretch.
There is absolutely no difference between the two. Dealer's who try to help you win can easily wipe you out and dealer's who try to take the player's money can keep dealing them blackjacks. You just deal the cards, you don't really help the player win or lose...EdgeCapper said:
EdgeCapper
Member
Common scenario where the dealer liking you makes a differance in winning or losing....the "accidental" hit. If you make a motion to hit and then say you didnt want it after seeing it would bust your hand, the dealer must call a floorman to watch as they move that card tothe next hand who wants a hit and if they dont want that particular card, then the floor decides on what to do next and the solution varies between casinos, floorman, and it is also influenced by the tables bet sizes. Well, if the dealer is sure that you motioned for a hit, they can just bust your hand and take your money saying that you made a motion to hit. You can always call a floorman over for what usually ends up being a free hand(conditional decision), your asking for heat from that point on. Any time somevbody takes a hit and claims a stay is suspiciouse, and if you are good player and I get along with you, I will call the floor in a completely differant manner than if i wanted you off my table. I'll say he tucked his cards to stay, but I was a little quick on the trigger and gave him this" Once I say that it was all my error, no suspicion. Other scenario..."Spot 5 scratched for a hit and I gave it her this card. He then decided it would be a better idea to stay after seeing and then after he realized he busted decided he wanted to give this card back." Granted, this isnt something you do everyday, but it comes up from time to time, whether you are intentionally trying to get a free hand by being unclear with your signals or you are being honest, I just wanted to give you an idea of the influence a dealer can have on your session.ScottH said:
EasyRhino
Well-Known Member
Other examples of how a dealer can help you out, while in no way cheating:
1) Was playing heads-up for a while with a dealer I was semi-regular with. Toking a little. Count gets good. Ploppies start to glom onto the table, and the dealer actively shoos the ploppies away from it until my streak ends.
2) I'm playing two hands, each have a 12. I hit on the first hand, get a pat hand. The dealer immediately starts to hit the second hand before I even gesture. (It's a 10, and would bust me). I kind of freeze in mid-gesture, and the dealer immediately calls the floor over. I'm able to stay on that twelve, and the dealer keeps the ten for her own draw card. (I don't think the results turned out well on that round, but it still improved the odds).
I had a stretch where I was betting one green one red one white, and toking the whites while I was on a small win streak. The dealer had to break down each denomination in the stack when making the payout, and commented how much of a pain in the ass it was, unless the player was toking.
1) Was playing heads-up for a while with a dealer I was semi-regular with. Toking a little. Count gets good. Ploppies start to glom onto the table, and the dealer actively shoos the ploppies away from it until my streak ends.
2) I'm playing two hands, each have a 12. I hit on the first hand, get a pat hand. The dealer immediately starts to hit the second hand before I even gesture. (It's a 10, and would bust me). I kind of freeze in mid-gesture, and the dealer immediately calls the floor over. I'm able to stay on that twelve, and the dealer keeps the ten for her own draw card. (I don't think the results turned out well on that round, but it still improved the odds).
As a dealer, what's your opinion of topping the bet with the toke chip, and "paying" the dealer from the winnings as the round goes on?EdgeCapper said:
I had a stretch where I was betting one green one red one white, and toking the whites while I was on a small win streak. The dealer had to break down each denomination in the stack when making the payout, and commented how much of a pain in the ass it was, unless the player was toking.
EdgeCapper
Member
That dealer pretty much said it like it is. When making bets, if you want to make things easier for the dealer, stick to one color, preferably the color of any other bets on the table. If your playing by yourself, it doesnt matter, but it slows down the flow of payouts when you bet differant colors.EasyRhino said:
Say there is 4 spots being played, your at #2 (most annoying spot for this) and you have a green and white bet of $26. Spot one has $25, spot 3 has $75, and spot 4 has $100. Dealer busts and everyone wins. Now the dealer grabs a big stack of green and sizes into the first two bets and then sees your bet, puts the rest of the green back in the rack, pulls out your exact payout and then must return to the rack and pull out another green for spot 1, spending at least an extra 5 seconds to finish the hand. If, however, you bet in front for the dealer, we can keep the big stack of green in our right hand and with our left, pull out a silver and pay both bets at the same time, moving directly onto spot 1 without pause.
We dealers are like any other American worker...lazy. The less work we have to do, the more we enjoy our lives. If your paying us for our service, then taking the extra time to pay you is not a problem. Its the slave labor that gets to us because if we depend on tips for our wages (most casinos pay minimum wage) and to make us work harder than we have to and not give anything in return is just wrong.
I personally prefer to be tipped in the same way that I tip when I play. I will bet(Ex $2) for the dealer in front, and on top of my own bet(Ex $25), match the dealer toke(Ex $27 total). As I win, I am replenishing my tip money and until I lose, will not run out of silver. This may slow down the payout a little bit, but is offset by the fact that the dealer doesnt have to change $5 every few minutes and we like knowing that as long as your winning, we are as well. Many players only tip until they run out of dollar chips and don't tip again until a cocktail waitress comes and they make change to give her and bet the rest for us or when they get a blackjack.
zengrifter
Banned
He'll quit dealing and pitbossing when you quit flipping burgers! zgScottH said:
Yeah, but I'm not the one bitching about my pay. If I wasn't satisfied making how much money I am, then I would quit, duh.zengrifter said:
It should only be a couple of months left for me "flipping burgers" (I don't flip burgers btw) and then I'm on to bigger and better things...
zengrifter
Banned
I think he said $5 per $200. 5% would be too much. zgScottH said:
zengrifter
Banned
I can work with that. zgScottH said:
Remember, he expects 2.5% of your wins, not your EV. So on good runs you'll be tipping more than 2.5% of your EV, which you can't get back during the bad ones. So if you always tip 2.5% on your wins you will be tipping away more than 2.5% of your lifetime win, because the dealers don't refund your tips if you lose.zengrifter said:
Also, is he saying it's ok to not tip when you're losing? I can tell you right now dealer's still complain if you don't tip, even when you are down considerably. It's like "When you win you should tip me for me helping you win." And then when the player is losing it changes to "It's not my fault, I just deal the cards. You should still tip me for providing the service."
I say, you took the job understanding you will get paid less than minimum wage, but will probably make a lot more with tips. If you can't handle those terms, then dealing is not for you, go work at a job that pays a higher guaranteed income and quit complaining. He could easily go to McDonald's and get a higher wage, but I guarantee you he won't because he is making a hell of a lot more then anyone working there with all his tips. So why complain so much?
Well if i were a counter, I'd probably look at tipping as x units over expected value kind of thing rather than % of dollar profit. And do it when I could maybe get value - not at the end of a session.
But if ur unit is $5 and u have a $200 profit, wouldn't that maybe represent 20 hours or so of EV play?
Either way, whatever I tipped, I would make sure I didn't count it in my overall winnings.
But if ur unit is $5 and u have a $200 profit, wouldn't that maybe represent 20 hours or so of EV play?
Either way, whatever I tipped, I would make sure I didn't count it in my overall winnings.
zengrifter
Banned
Edgecapper can tell you that I'm not known for my tipping. zg