the stratospheres BJ machine that dont shuffle til after 2/3 of the decks dealt

[shadroch]

Yes, the dealers rotate when no one has played for awhile.

 

[sevencard2003]

and does it also reshuffle the cards when the dealer changes then, even though the machine says it dont shuffle til 2 3/rds of the decks dealt? how it that legally allowa ble.

 

[EasyRhino]

Shad, do you remember the manufacturer and exact brand of that specific machine you've seen in operation?

And is it the same as the one at the Strat?

 

[shadroch]

No, on both counts. I may swing by the Strat Memorial Day weekend if I rent a car, but right now thats up in the air.
They certainly sound like the same machine, there may be slightly different models.

 

[sagefr0g]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey View Post
.....

Now here's a thought: let's say we didn't know where the shuffle point was in the blackjack machine, but we just pretended we did? We could use a balanced running count that will always hover around zero, but deviations from the RC of zero would signify that there is probably a wealth of high or low cards left. In this manner we could possibly play the machine with a slight advantage.

I don't know about this, I'm going to think about it tonight and see how it squares with the True Count Theorem. All input appreciated.

well, like in my fuzzy count approach stuff, i'm often enough dead wrong, i end up thinking the tc is positive when it's actually negative (i know this from viewing my practice session logs in cvbj), so but anyway i might be betting up into a negative count after a bunch of low cards have presented, only to see a bunch more low cards coming out and me i'm probably losing money on those raised bets.
thing is though, i might just lower my bets as a result of not seeing what i'm expecting to see, ie. aces & faces. conversely maybe after seeing a bunch of low cards come out, i might see that the tide is turning so to speak. maybe i don't see a snapper in a round, but i see the components of a snapper start presenting. maybe i start thinking the time is ripe, sort of thing.
so maybe you don't know when the shuffle is but you might be able to detect, pardon the expression 'the flow of the sort of cards' in a qualitative sense that is like unto that which we would be expecting were we able to put a quantitative measure on it.
so maybe if your really counting on this machine you just might detect some qualitatively meaningful situations.
lol, maybe probably this response should be in the voodoo forum.

just wanted to add to this stuff KOLAN's link about 'situational' plays:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=131953&postcount=30

 

[sevencard2003]

need some advice--cause i dont wanna end up on the street broke.

am staying here at binions--free through july11--had 28 days of a comped room--just goes to show u how much ive played their video BJ machine that shuffles after 2 3rds of a 6 deck shoe. and ive always assumed the shuffle took place when they changed dealers. but ive been getting killed on it.

to start with i was over $3000 ahead--and now im down to $1900 left of a $8300 roll i was once up to--and thats my whole WSOP bankroll left--and that was supposed to be used for $2-5 NL at the rio--not for blackjack. played it so heavily i ran up about $1200 worth of comps--which is why i got the free room so long.

has anyone found out a way to tell for sure when it shuffles? and if not advice on how to play it would be helpful. at first i seemed to lose mostly on highly positive counts--i tended to play all 5 spots by myself--betting never over the $3 minimum on negative counts--and often dropping to 1 hand but not always. then on positive counts sometimes but not often--id bet as much as over $120 per hand--(which is $600 if u play all 5 to lower variance--at least im assuming that lowers variance). and i think i was way overbetting my bankroll. so when i started losing so much--i drastically lowered my bet--and now my max bet is at $20 (1% of my roll).

i'm thinking i shouldnt play it anymore at all and stick to shortstacking the $1-2 NL $50 at a time to kill time thru july 11--just to be safe--and not lose this last $1900. i would leave town now and return home maybe if i knew a way to turn my final $870 in binions comps into cash.

but if i do play it--would sure be able to use advice--so i dont lose. main questions are--how can i be sure of when its shuffling? and if u cant tell--how do u change the way u count? and if i lowered my $20 max bet per hand to only $10 per hand--is that enough a spread to overcome the fact most of the time the counts gonna be negative--and ill be losing most $3 bets. i dont start off max betting on positive counts--i raise the bets up slowly depending on how its going and how much the counts positive.

anyone whose not comfortable posting this in the forum--please email [email protected]

 

[sevencard2003]

and theres been times i've seen the machine FLASH -- could that be the shuffle? u know when it kind of lights up and goes right off--same thing it does when the dealers checking for BJ--but it sometimes does that randomly at least it seemed that way

 

[Automatic Monkey]

need some advice--cause i dont wanna end up on the street broke.

am staying here at binions--free through july11--had 28 days of a comped room--just goes to show u how much ive played their video BJ machine that shuffles after 2 3rds of a 6 deck shoe. and ive always assumed the shuffle took place when they changed dealers. but ive been getting killed on it.

to start with i was over $3000 ahead--and now im down to $1900 left of a $8300 roll i was once up to--and thats my whole WSOP bankroll left--and that was supposed to be used for $2-5 NL at the rio--not for blackjack. played it so heavily i ran up about $1200 worth of comps--which is why i got the free room so long.

has anyone found out a way to tell for sure when it shuffles? and if not advice on how to play it would be helpful. at first i seemed to lose mostly on highly positive counts--i tended to play all 5 spots by myself--betting never over the $3 minimum on negative counts--and often dropping to 1 hand but not always. then on positive counts sometimes but not often--id bet as much as over $120 per hand--(which is $600 if u play all 5 to lower variance--at least im assuming that lowers variance). and i think i was way overbetting my bankroll. so when i started losing so much--i drastically lowered my bet--and now my max bet is at $20 (1% of my roll).

i'm thinking i shouldnt play it anymore at all and stick to shortstacking the $1-2 NL $50 at a time to kill time thru july 11--just to be safe--and not lose this last $1900. i would leave town now and return home maybe if i knew a way to turn my final $870 in binions comps into cash.

but if i do play it--would sure be able to use advice--so i dont lose. main questions are--how can i be sure of when its shuffling? and if u cant tell--how do u change the way u count? and if i lowered my $20 max bet per hand to only $10 per hand--is that enough a spread to overcome the fact most of the time the counts gonna be negative--and ill be losing most $3 bets. i dont start off max betting on positive counts--i raise the bets up slowly depending on how its going and how much the counts positive.

anyone whose not comfortable posting this in the forum--please email [email protected]

STOP!

Come on man, stay away from it. I didn't post that message in the Rhode Island thread for no reason- the dealer definitely changes without the cards being shuffled. You are probably not playing with an advantage.

Do not play this game again, and get back to your original plan of poker.

 

[sevencard2003]

i probably shouldnt play it anymore til 2 things happen.

1. i drastically increase my roll from $1900 to about $7500
2. i find out 100% for sure when the shuffle takes place--and if not able to tell--how someone can still win counting even if its not possible to tell

will pay alot of money to anyone able to prove when the shuffle takes place once i recover my roll

too bad i never made it down to laughlin where i was told the min bet is $1--since all my bets wouldve been 3x smaller all my losses total shouldve been 3x less.

still wanna hear from other posters--the ones whove learned how to tell when it shuffles. im sure u are still playing the machine or am i wrong?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

i probably shouldnt play it anymore til 2 things happen.

1. i drastically increase my roll from $1900 to about $7500
2. i find out 100% for sure when the shuffle takes place--and if not able to tell--how someone can still win counting even if its not possible to tell

will pay alot of money to anyone able to prove when the shuffle takes place once i recover my roll

too bad i never made it down to laughlin where i was told the min bet is $1--since all my bets wouldve been 3x smaller all my losses total shouldve been 3x less.

still wanna hear from other posters--the ones whove learned how to tell when it shuffles. im sure u are still playing the machine or am i wrong?

There is a way to beat it without knowing when the shuffle happens but the edge is so small I'm not even going to tell you. It's a ridiculous thing to do- you are in Las Vegas which is full of good opportunities, why would you want to screw around with a garbage game from a BJ machine?

The very next thing I recommend you do, tomorrow, is get yourself some funbooks and do a coupon run to restore some of your bankroll. The coupon experts here can probably give you more specific advice on that.

 

[shadroch]

I'm not convinced the RI machines work the same as the Vegas machines.
That said, I can't believe this guy has played these games in Vegas as much as he claims and hasn't bothered counting down the decks. Nor why he'd bother playing these games with much better games in the very same casino.

 

[ExhibitCAA]

The entire experience is a stunning misallocation of BR and time. With only $8K or so, gambling it on an unreliable COUNT MACHINE is way too dangerous. Wonging shoes up and down the Strip is probably better, and that's a scary thought, too.

 

[Kasi]

STOP!.... You are probably not playing with an advantage...

Is he or is he not playing at an advantage?

Either STOP! if you are not or CONTINUE! if you are?

Like it matters whether the dealer changes every round or never changes.

I guess I agree with you though, if you don't KNOW!, don't play.

I don't know - it just would surprise me a little if the rules of what it does are not publicly available somewhere. Manufacturer. State Law. Something.

The OP's problem could merely be something more mundane like since when it is proper to bet 5 hands at $120 per hand, (was it with a $3 unit?) even if he knew the exact point it was shuffled? Did he say with an $8K roll or something? It wouldn't likely matter much if he knew the shuffle point with certainty.

I don't know poker but shortstacking chips in poker doesn't maybe seem like the best idea either lol.

 

[dumbWinner]

I played with one of these machines in westin Casuarina hotel in vegas. As far i can remember the machine never shuffled. There were these machines , a CSM 6 deck and a human shuffle game in the little casino they had. We were doing min bets which was $3 most of the time and occasionally a little bit more ... sitting there and drinking. Also when the dealers change there is no indication or anything saying the shoe is shuffled. But one thing i noticed which was kinda strange was that once i left the machine , the pit boss came over to the machine and was hurriedly looking at something.

 

[sevencard2003]

I played with one of these machines in westin Casuarina hotel in vegas. As far i can remember the machine never shuffled. There were these machines , a CSM 6 deck and a human shuffle game in the little casino they had. We were doing min bets which was $3 most of the time and occasionally a little bit more ... sitting there and drinking. Also when the dealers change there is no indication or anything saying the shoe is shuffled. But one thing i noticed which was kinda strange was that once i left the machine , the pit boss came over to the machine and was hurriedly looking at something.

have been in that casino too--their BJ machine if u look close--u will see the same sign saying shuffled when 2 3rds of a 6 deck shoe. yeah i shouldve went to laughlin if i was gonna play them machines--an $8000 bank there(with the $1 min instead of $3 min) would be like a $24000 bank here. then if i lost, i'd known for sure it was unbeatable -- instead of just bad betting strategy or variance. wish id not overbet my roll--and seen if i was still losing.

also if i was incorrectly thinking the count was positive when it was negative--due to being mistaken about when they shuffle--that meant i lost MORE than i wouldve had i not been counting--because when i count i change the way i hit, the hands i surrender--and the hands i insure. so i not only made betting mistakes--id have made playing mistakes too if i had the count wrong.

 

[sevencard2003]

I'm not convinced the RI machines work the same as the Vegas machines.
That said, I can't believe this guy has played these games in Vegas as much as he claims and hasn't bothered counting down the decks. Nor why he'd bother playing these games with much better games in the very same casino.

i didnt figure it was necesary to count out the number of cards between dealer changes--cause i figured others had already done this and verified it. guess i was wrong.

 

[Licentia]

if you READ that thread carefully, despite advice people gave (like actually sitting and WATCHING the game - NOT PLAYING it - to figure out if you could determine the shuffle.

I don't think ANYONE actually did this, you could have though, but it doesn't seem you bothered to take the time either. i really can't believe that you would 'gamble' on a game where there wasn't enough information to know if the shuffle point could be determined.....

That's a sign of compulsive gambling.

Licentia

 

[Licentia]

You could try to email the Wizard of Odds, he may be able to answer your questions about this machine.

Licentia

 

[baseball21]

don't waste your time with common sense

sevencard is a "legend" on a poker website. He has a huge following on his blog, including myself as a loyal reader. Tony (aka sevencard) has autism. He disclosed this himself in his blog. Recently, he has taken a huge hit in his bankroll by playing these BJ machines. This seems to be a trend for him. He thinks that he gets an advantage, without any real evidence to prove it. He also blamed people on "another forum" for not helping him with the rules and proper bankroll management to beat these machines. I found this to be in bad form. I have found this site to be very helpful over the last couple of years, but would never take anything I read as absolute truth without a little doing a little research on my own. Please to not be offended by anything that Sevencard might post. Please also understand, that he has a 125 page blog full of advice that he ignores. You may think that by posting to stay of the machines, he will do that, but it just won't happen. I won't post the site his blog is on, but if you happen to find it, read it and you will understand. He really just struck a nerve with me about not getting help on this site because I find that most posters on here provide quality info and really want to help.

 

[sagefr0g]

wouldn't one way to play this machine be just not worry about when it shuffles and always divide the rc by six? then min max bet it with some sort of conservative spread.?:whip:

edit: i know you'd be wrong as to what the real true count was often enough to make it dangerous, hmm, maybe divide by a higher number than the number of decks??:whip:

edit: what i'm trying to get at here is using a sort of 'fudge factor' approach, ie. 'fudging' the concept used when one enters a table in process where the count is unknown so you start out dividing your rc by the full pack size... sort of thing, lol and hoping the shuffle doesn't come the very next hand, lmao. :whip: