the stratospheres BJ machine that dont shuffle til after 2/3 of the decks dealt

[sagefr0g]

The entire experience is a stunning misallocation of BR and time. With only $8K or so, gambling it on an unreliable COUNT MACHINE is way too dangerous. Wonging shoes up and down the Strip is probably better, and that's a scary thought, too.

do i detect a bit of a shall i say 'skeptical, critical' personal position with regard to counting, even wonging shoes? or is it more the $8K bankroll that makes the proposition of wonging shoes up and down the strip a scary thought? maybe more a time and effort extended concern regarding the matter, perhaps? just not worth it when there are bigger fish to fry, sort of thing?

 

[maverik]

do i detect a bit of a shall i say 'skeptical, critical' personal position with regard to counting, even wonging shoes? or is it more the $8K bankroll that makes the proposition of wonging shoes up and down the strip a scary thought? maybe more a time and effort extended concern regarding the matter, perhaps? just not worth it when there are bigger fish to fry, sort of thing?

wonging strip games with an 8k bankroll is not scary, its good advice, much better than playing some stupid BJ computer game. with that BR he could wong in at 25 min tables when the count is TC 2 or greater and throw down 25 dollar chips, probably even playing two hands

 

[sagefr0g]

wonging strip games with an 8k bankroll is not scary, its good advice, much better than playing some stupid BJ computer game. with that BR he could wong in at 25 min tables when the count is TC 2 or greater and throw down 25 dollar chips, probably even playing two hands

that's what i thought as well, none the less i'm curious as to ExhibitCAA's thoughts on the matter considering his statement.

 

[daddybo]

What I've Done...

wouldn't one way to play this machine be just not worry about when it shuffles and always divide the rc by six? then min max bet it with some sort of conservative spread.?:whip:

edit: i know you'd be wrong as to what the real true count was often enough to make it dangerous, hmm, maybe divide by a higher number than the number of decks??:whip:

edit: what i'm trying to get at here is using a sort of 'fudge factor' approach, ie. 'fudging' the concept used when one enters a table in process where the count is unknown so you start out dividing your rc by the full pack size... sort of thing, lol and hoping the shuffle doesn't come the very next hand, lmao. :whip:

I've played electronic blackjack games where you can't detect the shuffle but you know how many decks. Never for money.. just playing. I do the running count as usual and "guestimate" the decks remaining for TC purposes... Leave the game when I think it's shuffle time or when I'm not getting the cards I think I should. I know that's kind of voodooish if your using money.

The reason I stared doing it was a friend bet me I couldn't beat the game on the IPhone and win to $100,000 in a week .... I'm up $353,315 on it now. (spreading $100 to $2500, and it's got some good rules) You really have to spread large and live with some big variance. Not sure I would do it with real money at a casino... I would rather play with real cards when playing with real money.

MY point being that counting seems to be helpful even with out full knowledge of the deck state.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

wonging strip games with an 8k bankroll is not scary, its good advice, much better than playing some stupid BJ computer game. with that BR he could wong in at 25 min tables when the count is TC 2 or greater and throw down 25 dollar chips, probably even playing two hands

I agree, playing those shoes is one of the better things you can do in Las Vegas. In terms of counting there are maybe only one or two approaches with higher EV, and none as easy to get away with.

 

[Geoff Hall]

I'm not familiar with this machine but there are some machines that allocate a 6-deck shoe to EACH player. In other words, if there are 5 players playing then each player has his/her own shoe in which the cards are drawn from.

Maybe not the case here but worth checking just to be sure.

 

[sevencard2003]

ok ive learned what i want to know--and officially will not be playing that BJ machine again--not til i learn a way to discover the shuffle point. i sat down at that machine in binions one final time today--waited for a new dealer--counted out the total number of cards instead of a regular count--and when it got to over 225 cards and still the same dealer that blew my theory of a dealer change every 208 cards

all u guys with large bankrolls need to be bribing some shufflemaster employees to let u see an owners manual. u might be able to earn enough to make it worth his while and yours.

 

[sagefr0g]

I'm not familiar with this machine but there are some machines that allocate a 6-deck shoe to EACH player. In other words, if there are 5 players playing then each player has his/her own shoe in which the cards are drawn from.

Maybe not the case here but worth checking just to be sure.

the machines i've seen don't have documentation stating it's one way or the other.
is there a way to find out?

 

[kewljason]

I've never played these games, so please forgive my ignorance. My question: When you sit down and begin play on the machine, is it the start of a new shoe or could it be any random point in the shoe??

 

[sagefr0g]

I've never played these games, so please forgive my ignorance. My question: When you sit down and begin play on the machine, is it the start of a new shoe or could it be any random point in the shoe??

you really can't tell that either, far as i know.

 

[sevencard2003]

u know there might not be a way to know when a shuffles coming up in vegas--but if u was in PA where u guys say they got that funny law--wouldnt u be able to tell?

as soon as u sit down as a new player--it would begin a new shoe--then ud count out 208 dealt cards to u(and the dealer?)and that would be the beginning then of the next new shoe? maybe cause of that law--it would make the games countable in PA only?

PA players explain

 

[kewljason]

u know there might not be a way to know when a shuffles coming up in vegas--but if u was in PA where u guys say they got that funny law--wouldnt u be able to tell?

as soon as u sit down as a new player--it would begin a new shoe--then ud count out 208 dealt cards to u(and the dealer?)and that would be the beginning then of the next new shoe? maybe cause of that law--it would make the games countable in PA only?
PA players explain

are the Pa games the same? deal 2/3 before shuffle? how do you know when you sit down that you begin a new shoe? sounds way too uncertain to me.

 

[sevencard2003]

well i was told the law in PA is when they change players--which i guess is determined by someones players card?--is a different shoe for each player. this is true?

 

[Kasi]

I'm not familiar with this machine but there are some machines that allocate a 6-deck shoe to EACH player. In other words, if there are 5 players playing then each player has his/her own shoe in which the cards are drawn from...

That would be in Pennsylvania where some law says one's results are not allowed to be effected by the cards dealt to some other player.

Allegedly it was 6D DOA DAS LS (if I recall) with a $1min and $200 (or more, can't remember max) with a 2/3 shuffle point. Maybe a 2/3 shuffle point after a round was completed. Pretty sure it was a Shufflemaster.

Went down one day to either "voodoo" it to death with a roll I deemed adequate or, even possibly, God forbid, count it on the faith what they said was true.

Looked all around. The guy told me the machine had been removed the day before lol. Went home. Picked up +EV on the way back by buying cigs in WV lol.

My only question here is, I think it's been touched on earlier, if one KNEW the darn machine would immediately re-shuffle after every 208th card (to make it simple for starters) , whether the dealer ever changed or not, whether one could "see" or not (assume not) a re-shuffle point by the machine, would it matter when I entered a shoe what the count may actually be when I entered it based on last "actual" shuffle-point, it might be +20 or -20R RC but I wouldn't know it, if I assumed a RC=0 at that point, the point I entered, and re-set it every 208th card dealt?

Basically, I've thought if I "know" a re-shuffle occurs every 208th card, say by rule, that's all I really need to know?

Auto Monk seems to want adjust RC by something to compensate for original RC entry point without knowing "actual" shuffle point or "actual "RC". As if one will never overcome the "actual" RC at the point when one entered, if I understood right.

Do I really care if I know I will always see 208 cards before they are "re-shuffled for me"?

Oh yeah - assume I could exactly count when 208 cards had been dealt.

Really, I'm just asking, it's obviously, probably, theoretical anyway, since, these assumptions may or may not actually exist lol. Just asking becasue I don't know what to think lol.

Regardless, the $mins are so small, the $range (and unit range) so large, the rules so good, never (maybe if I 'm guessing right lol) any worries about "back-counting", 5 spots available, not even including comp-stuff, these machines really appeal to me from both a "voodoo" and "AP" poiint of view.

From a "pure entertainment" point of view, I can't think of anything that would cost less and entertain me for as long lol.

I think I saw a similarish machine in Tahoe a couple years back. At Bill's. Me and my wife's friend each bought in for $20. She just did, having faith in me, what I told her lol. She has an $1100 vaccuum sweeper, if you can believe it, and was scared to death about losing her $20. Hours later she had $24 and I had, loser that I am, $16. But I maintain I drank more at $1 tip for a drink and actually won lol.

Meanwhile, my wife played the other side of this machine which was a 3-card poker machine, with a paytable that doesn't exist on "real" tables, it was that much better, with a $1min and won her ass off so we had to listen to crap like "another 3-of-a-kind" etc. Go figure, get a little ahead, increase $unit and the next thing you know she's broke lol.

If I'm guessing wrong about entering at any point with an assumed RC=0 regardless of "actual RC" based on "actual" shuffle point with a say "fixed # of cards dealt" re-shuffle point, OK then, stuff changes lol.

Any thoughts appreciated on my "main" question, if anyone can even understand what it is lol.

 

[Kasi]

as soon as u sit down as a new player--it would begin a new shoe--then ud count out 208 dealt cards to u(and the dealer?)and that would be the beginning then of the next new shoe? maybe cause of that law--it would make the games countable in PA only?

I don't really know. I don't think the machine would know when a new person actually sat down. Or when a back-counter is telling the primary player what to do. Etc.

I guess I think all it would know, if it even knows that, is something like "I will re-shuffle every 208 cards dealt to that spot".

Which gets me back to yours and mine main question, "would it make the game countable"?

 

[sevencard2003]

i am not sure how--and would like someone to explain how--but according to PA law--the machine has to know when a new player sits--whether they use a players card or not. maybe in PA they require the use of players cards? someone tell me how it works..

am thinking that if they must restart the 6 deck shoe every new player--that u should borrow someone elses players card--and once the shoe turns negative--insert their card and take out yours to force a shuffle? explain why this would or wouldnt work.

come on, theirs gotta be someone familiar with PA gaming law reading these forums.

 

[sagefr0g]

i am not sure how--and would like someone to explain how--but according to PA law--the machine has to know when a new player sits--whether they use a players card or not. maybe in PA they require the use of players cards? someone tell me how it works..

am thinking that if they must restart the 6 deck shoe every new player--that u should borrow someone elses players card--and once the shoe turns negative--insert their card and take out yours to force a shuffle? explain why this would or wouldnt work.

come on, theirs gotta be someone familiar with PA gaming law reading these forums.

lmao, it would seem like a legal technicality if it's the law in PA that other players cards can't be allowed to affect you. but me, i don't know if that is really the law or not.
just i guess don't lose the rest of your bank on them and try to sue them hoping that is the case and that they aren't following the law that strictly. :joker::whip:

 

[Automatic Monkey]

well i was told the law in PA is when they change players--which i guess is determined by someones players card?--is a different shoe for each player. this is true?

Maybe, maybe not. The Sands in PA has Shufflemaster BJ machines that are similar to the ones you lost all your money on, except that they shuffle after each round, so counting has no effect. Up to 5 players play against the same dealer hand, so assuming the cards are coming out of a shoe the normal way the actions of each player will affect the outcome of the hand for all, just in a way that cannot be predetermined.

The only way to prevent one player's play from affecting the game for others is to randomly predetermine the sequence of cards each player (including the dealer) will receive. The machine allows one split and has a 7-card Charlie rule, so the most cards a player can receive is 14. Thus the software can be programmed such that player 1 will receive cards 1-14, player 2 will receive cards 15-28, and so on. This would require the shoe to be shuffled after every round, so I suspect this is how these machines operate. As long as the shuffle is random and the set of cards each player will receive is determined randomly, it is an honest blackjack game.

 

[Geoff Hall]

Maybe, maybe not. The Sands in PA has Shufflemaster BJ machines that are similar to the ones you lost all your money on, except that they shuffle after each round, so counting has no effect. Up to 5 players play against the same dealer hand, so assuming the cards are coming out of a shoe the normal way the actions of each player will affect the outcome of the hand for all, just in a way that cannot be predetermined.

The only way to prevent one player's play from affecting the game for others is to randomly predetermine the sequence of cards each player (including the dealer) will receive. The machine allows one split and has a 7-card Charlie rule, so the most cards a player can receive is 14. Thus the software can be programmed such that player 1 will receive cards 1-14, player 2 will receive cards 15-28, and so on. This would require the shoe to be shuffled after every round, so I suspect this is how these machines operate. As long as the shuffle is random and the set of cards each player will receive is determined randomly, it is an honest blackjack game.

AM,
As Kasi says, you can get around this rule of 'not affecting others' by giving each player his/her own shoe.
This 'shoe for each player' definitely exists on the SM machines.

 

[Kasi]

This 'shoe for each player' definitely exists on the SM machines.

Before I respond to that, since, if if I asked at the end, noone might ever get that far anyway lol, can't blame them lol, do you have any thoughts as to whether it would matter or not if a player enters at any random point in a shoe knowing only the computer will shuffle to a new 6 decks before dealing the 209th card and afer dealing the 208th card (like it has since the day it was turned on just say) even though one can't physically tell that that is indeed what is happening when it does, and begin with an assumed RC=0 at that point whether the actual RC was -20 or +20 at that random entering point?

Aren't my next 208 cards seen just as random as if I knew when the physical shuffle occurred and, in effect, made my own "virtual" shufflle in my mind every 208 cards?

That said, I don't really know much about the 2-3rds pen stuff, whether it's true or not, whether they shuffle after every card, complete the round after the 208th card was dealt, not start a round if it knew the next round would excede 208 cards etc lol.

OK my response to thread lol.
I should have added, after reading AM's dealer has 5 up or whatever, the dealer also deals from his own "virtual" shoe along with each "player". Say "seat" lol.

It was done so this virtual BJ game would still fit under the definition of a "slot" machine since PA has not ever approved physical table games.

It could even be it required a county-by-county vote to approve it even after the gaming commission, after working with Shufflemaster for months to make such a machine, approved it.

I think the 5-seat table counts as 5 slot machines under the license granted to a casino which caps the number of slot machines allowed.

Obviously each player, including the dealer too, each playing from his own "virtual shoe" would effect HA. Probably not much though lol.