These rules are amazing...

[Kasi]

Please try to avoid bringing facts into these discussions. No one else does.

Well, I tried to lol.

When Blue Efficiency says "junk BJ games are better than roulette, slots or carnival poker games." it would be a fact, probably most of the time anyway, if he had said "junk BJ games have a lower HA than roulette, slots or carnival poker games."

When Blue Efficiency said "If they go into a casino for entertainment and drinks resigned to lose the $100 they bring, in the end it doesn't really matter which game they play." I'd have to disagree a little because the only thing that would matter to me is how long my entertainment dollar could last - I'd rather take a longer time to lose it than in a shorter time period.

What, to me, in this case, makes a game "better" or not, is to answer how long will it take me to lose my $100. Which, of course, HA is a factor but so is $min and number of bet decisions made per hour.

It's no different than AP's who wish to maximize their $win per unit of time. The maximization of $won per hour doesn't always follow from the HA of the basic game or, indeed, always simply follow from what his "+W/L" is. He also must care about hands/hr and $min vs $max, along with other rules that don't even effect HA like mid-shoe entry etc.

If they only based stuff on basic HA, or even their advantage as counters, which is we assume positive, they would be doing themselves a disservice to soley focus on HA and ignore their expected $win per hour.

In a way, the approach a BS player has to a -EV game perhaps should be much the same as the approach an AP has to a -EV game. Except the BS guy has access to many more games than AP's because they are simply not countable in the first place and he doesn't really care becasue he only wants and will play the game that minimizes his $loss per hour.

 

[creeping panther]

Shad

Please try to avoid bringing facts into these discussions. No one else does.

You think what Blue said are facts........really????????:laugh:

CP

 

[creeping panther]

Blue,

However, junk BJ games are better than roulette, slots or carnival poker games.

You better check that statement. 6.5, hit 17, in 2, d, 6, d, 8d....hmmmmm

There are slots that pay 98% or better, I know some and VP far better, and European Roulette???..................hmmmmm:laugh:

CP

 

[Blue Efficacy]

You better check that statement. 6.5, hit 17, in 2, d, 6, d, 8d....hmmmmm

There are slots that pay 98% or better, I know some and VP far better, and European Roulette???..................hmmmmm:laugh:

CP

Slots that pay 98% or better are rare and usually require quite a large denomination of credit. In my state slot payouts where skill is not a factor (ie, not VP)the max payout allowed is 95%, VP is capped too, somewhere around 98% i believe.

Single Zero roulette offers a higher house edge than Harrah's BJ.

I know how much you hate garbage BJ games (and rightfully so) my point is simply that a bad BJ game still beats a good slot machine.

Fortunately I will never see any 6:5 blackjack in my state. The compacts between the tribes and the state allow BJ payouts to be either 3:2 or 2:1 at the Tribe's discretion. For some odd reason they all chose 3:2...

 

[shadroch]

You think what Blue said are facts........really????????:laugh:

CP

Funny thing about facts. They either are,or they aren't. Doesn't really matter what people think of them.
What I'd be interested in is your ability to detect slot machines that pay 98%. Care to share how you can tell them from the vast majority that don't?

 

[ihate17]

It depends upon who is playing--The blackjack edge is not fixed

I know how much you hate garbage BJ games (and rightfully so) my point is simply that a bad BJ game still beats a good slot machine.

For you, myself and other readers of this board your statement above is correct, but we are not the people the casino depends upon or aims these games at. In fact, we as a rule, play neither the bad BJ game or slots.

The slot player is faced with a fixed house edge. He just presses a button and bad decisions can not be made and will not cost him additional money over the house edge, because bad decisions (except playing in the first place) do not exist.

The blackjack player that the garbage BJ game is aimed at is extremely capable of making many horrible play decisions that result in his losing at a rate of perhaps 2 or 3X the house edge.

The result of this, is my opinion, especially considering that anyone who would play a 6/5 8 deck game is not aware of anything in blackjack, is that the blackjack game is far worse than the slot game for this kind of person but there is one big equalizer here. Over time, even though he will lose a greater percentage of the money bet on the blackjack table, if he is a small bettor the fact that he will play far fewer blackjack hands than slot rounds, he will probably lose less money overall on blackjack.

ihate17

 

[creeping panther]

Shad

Funny thing about facts. They either are,or they aren't. Doesn't really matter what people think of them.
What I'd be interested in is your ability to detect slot machines that pay 98%. Care to share how you can tell them from the vast majority that don't?

I know of places that post paying 98% or better on the machine.

VP-99.56%....99.9% that is fact. Euro roulette, 2.6%

What is the HA on the JUnk BJ games I listed??

Funny thing about Facts:laugh:

CP

 

[creeping panther]

17

I know how much you hate garbage BJ games (and rightfully so) my point is simply that a bad BJ game still beats a good slot machine.

For you, myself and other readers of this board your statement above is correct, but we are not the people the casino depends upon or aims these games at. In fact, we as a rule, play neither the bad BJ game or slots.

The slot player is faced with a fixed house edge. He just presses a button and bad decisions can not be made and will not cost him additional money over the house edge, because bad decisions (except playing in the first place) do not exist.

The blackjack player that the garbage BJ game is aimed at is extremely capable of making many horrible play decisions that result in his losing at a rate of perhaps 2 or 3X the house edge.

The result of this, is my opinion, especially considering that anyone who would play a 6/5 8 deck game is not aware of anything in blackjack, is that the blackjack game is far worse than the slot game for this kind of person but there is one big equalizer here. Over time, even though he will lose a greater percentage of the money bet on the blackjack table, if he is a small bettor the fact that he will play far fewer blackjack hands than slot rounds, he will probably lose less money overall on blackjack.

ihate17

Give me the facts 17, is there games better than the junk BJ games I mentioned, math wise.....hmmmmm?

Don't beat around the bush.

CP

 

[creeping panther]

Blue

Slots that pay 98% or better are rare and usually require quite a large denomination of credit. In my state slot payouts where skill is not a factor (ie, not VP)the max payout allowed is 95%, VP is capped too, somewhere around 98% i believe.

Single Zero roulette offers a higher house edge than Harrah's BJ.

I know how much you hate garbage BJ games (and rightfully so) my point is simply that a bad BJ game still beats a good slot machine.

Fortunately I will never see any 6:5 blackjack in my state. The compacts between the tribes and the state allow BJ payouts to be either 3:2 or 2:1 at the Tribe's discretion. For some odd reason they all chose 3:2...

So your state caps pay....you sure. That really sucks.

I am talking about the junk games I listed, junk BJ games, you mention Harrahs BJ, what is Harrahs BJ rules etc.

So a 2% edge at VP versus the Junk BJ I listed, still far better to play VP and single 0 Roulette.

"Large denomination of credit"....how about $3 a spin............ for a min 98%.

CP

 

[FLASH1296]

In your computations, remember how many "trials" or [decisions] per hour there are.

Strong V.P. players can handle two (2) adjacent machines and get around 1,000 decisions per hour, or one for 600 hands per hour.

For pure fun and with every expectation of losing, some play PaiGow Poker.
IF, and only if, you understand the correct strategy, the House Edge exceeds 2.5%.

Why is it a good game (of sorts) ?

Because there are so many pushes that you may get only 25 resolved bets per hour.

Your hourly projected losses, betting the minimum, will seldom exceed the cost of the liquor you consume.

 

[creeping panther]

Kasi

Well, I tried to lol.

When Blue Efficiency says "junk BJ games are better than roulette, slots or carnival poker games." it would be a fact, probably most of the time anyway, if he had said "junk BJ games have a lower HA than roulette, slots or carnival poker games."

When Blue Efficiency said "If they go into a casino for entertainment and drinks resigned to lose the $100 they bring, in the end it doesn't really matter which game they play." I'd have to disagree a little because the only thing that would matter to me is how long my entertainment dollar could last - I'd rather take a longer time to lose it than in a shorter time period.

What, to me, in this case, makes a game "better" or not, is to answer how long will it take me to lose my $100. Which, of course, HA is a factor but so is $min and number of bet decisions made per hour.

It's no different than AP's who wish to maximize their $win per unit of time. The maximization of $won per hour doesn't always follow from the HA of the basic game or, indeed, always simply follow from what his "+W/L" is. He also must care about hands/hr and $min vs $max, along with other rules that don't even effect HA like mid-shoe entry etc.

If they only based stuff on basic HA, or even their advantage as counters, which is we assume positive, they would be doing themselves a disservice to soley focus on HA and ignore their expected $win per hour.

In a way, the approach a BS player has to a -EV game perhaps should be much the same as the approach an AP has to a -EV game. Except the BS guy has access to many more games than AP's because they are simply not countable in the first place and he doesn't really care becasue he only wants and will play the game that minimizes his $loss per hour.

Would you rather pat a 4% sales tax or a 5% sales tax.................

Either you go with the math or you don't.

CP

 

[shadroch]

I know of places that post paying 98% or better on the machine.



No, you do not. What you think you know is wrong. What the casino is saying is that that particular machine PAID 98% or better. PAID, as in the past. Past performance is no indicator of future performance. The chances are that a rare big jackpot win pushed the overall payment on that machine to whatever percentage the casino is stating.

 

[DownUnderWonder]

I think low stakes games with crappy rules is actually a good thing for punters. Where I work, we have single and double zero roulette. The double zero is only on the lowest stakes tables, with single zero elsewhere. This allows the casino to offer tables for low stakes players who can bet half as much as the next level up but the casino gets to make the same amount of money. Why is this good? Because if they didn't offer this then they would have raised the minimums on all the tables right now, and the people who want to play roulette on a night out will only have about half as many bets to make for the same bankroll. These players don't notice the extra house edge in any meaningful way, but they do notice that their money goes twice as far. They are paying for entertainment after all. The house still makes the same though, so they are happy too. A win-win in my opinion.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

So for the cost of two bets at your table, someone can play the othe table at much smaller stakes and enjoy themselves. What a crime. If someone has,say,$50 budgeted for a night of entertainment,then obviously they shouldn't be playing at a $15 table,now should they? Again, for the vast majority of people who enter a casino, it's entertainment, not serious business.
Now if they were sitting at a table with these same rules and the minimum was the same as your better table, that would be different, but they aren't. Are they?

None of this is really relevant. When you are a counter and you see a 6D game with pen to 0.5 deck, YOU PLAY IT! And you don't give that seat up until the pen goes away or they drag you away.

Why are we concerned with what people who bring $50 for a night of gambling "entertainment" do? We can't be the shepherds in a casino, leading the sheep out of harm's way.

 

[InPlay]

I know of places that post paying 98% or better on the machine.

Funny thing about Facts:laugh:

CP

From what I know all the casinos has to have is ONE a machine that pays the amount posted. Usually there are at least a 1,000 machines in a casino. Good Luck on finding that slot machine. I think your statement should have been machines not machine which would have been correct.

 

[creeping panther]

Slots

I know of places that post paying 98% or better on the machine.



No, you do not. What you think you know is wrong. What the casino is saying is that that particular machine PAID 98% or better. PAID, as in the past. Past performance is no indicator of future performance. The chances are that a rare big jackpot win pushed the overall payment on that machine to whatever percentage the casino is stating.

have a pay back, 75%, 80% 98% etc, they are set at that payback. Thus when a casino is caught with a machine set at a payback lower than what is allowed they are fined. Can you understand now. 98% on a slot is not that exciting BTW, try VP for much better. There are some slots that you can really make some money on if you are so inclined, I am not, but some very close to me are.



I do not want to get into this very deep but if you know the right people and have the ability to do so and have befriended the right people you can learn some real juicy inside info on some machines.

There is a very famous AP Pro who's decision to turn Pro was not because of what happened at the Felt but in front of a slot machine.

CP

 

[InPlay]

PAY ATTENTION TO THE LAST SENTENCE.



The Lowdown on Slot Machines: How Do They Work?


Slot machines are little more than the computer chips they run on.

Unlike slot machines from decades ago, today’s slot machines operate by computer, with computer chips that are programmed to select numbers randomly. When you pull the handle or hit the spin button, the computer’s random number generator pulls three numbers from its bank.

The numbers the computer selects are matched to symbols displayed on the slot machine’s screen. Most numbers match symbols that don’t offer a payoff or a big payoff. Fewer numbers match symbols with big payoffs.

Slot machines may look like the spinning reels take a few moments to land on the correct symbol, but those moments are largely for show. In reality, the computer has chosen the three numbers the instant the player hits the button.

The computer chips that govern the random number generator are programmed to pay out at a particular, legal rate. For example, one state might require a minimum payout of 85 percent. A casino can order slot machines to pay out at any rate above that percentage. Most will beat that percentage by many points, and the payout percentage will often be greater for greater denominations of coins played. If you play a nickel machine, for instance, the machine’s payout rate might be 93 percent, where a quarter machine’s payout rate might be 94.6 percent. The chip controlling the payout rate can be changed, but casinos are required to report any such changes to their state’s Gaming Commission.

The most important thing to understand about slot machines, however, is the fact that each spin is independent of other spins. That is, continuing to play on one machine won’t put you closer to a win than hitting the spin button only once. Because of the random number generator, winning on a slot machine is a matter of pure luck.

 

[InPlay]

Another point is there are three big problems with playing slot machines vs. other casino games. First, the casinos usually don't disclose the odds on individual machines, so you can't really be an informed player. Second, whatever those undisclosed odds are, they're usually bad -- far worse than table games like craps, baccarat, and blackjack. And finally, slot machines are usually played much faster than table games, so they suck away your money even quicker. Where is the advantage ?

 

[InPlay]

The first thing you have to understand is that a slot machine is exactly that, it's a machine. If you ever get to see the inside of a slot machine check it out as the machine is basically simple.

You just have to understand the technique of how the machine works. A whole mess of wires, electronic gizmos, gadgets lots of goodies and the mother board that holds the random number generator (RNG) computer chip(s).

Most modern slot machines are designed to look and feel like the old mechanical models, but they work on a completely different principle. The outcome of each pull of the handle or push of the spin button is actually controlled by a central computer or a Random Number Generator (RNG) inside the machine or both not by the motion of the reels.

Even though the computer tells the reels where to stop, the games are not pre-programmed to pay out at a certain time. A random number generator (RNG) at the heart of the computer ensures that each pull or spin has an equal shot at hitting the jackpot. This applies to Class III slots. Class II machines Video Lottery Terminals (VLT) work differently.

One of the main advantages of the computer system for machine manufacturers is that they can easily configure how often the machine pays out (how loose or tight it is).

The real truth of the matter is that you have no way of telling when the machine will hit, in other words your playing completely in the blind just throwing your hard earned money into a endless money pit. Hopefully lady luck will be on your side when you're playing.

So all those so called winning systems, how to beat the slots, winning strategies are pure speculation. All they do is take more of your hard earned money. For more on how slot machines work see Chapter 2 - Slots

Whenever the slot machine is turned on, the random number generator is spitting out whole numbers (typically between 1 and several million) hundreds of times a second. The instant you pull the handle or press the button, the computer records the next few numbers from the random number generator. Then it feeds these numbers through a simple program to determine where the reels will stop.

Remember, you are at the casino to have fun, slot play should be fun. If you lose interest or get bored, cash out, there is always another day. The casinos and the slot machine will be there waiting for you believe me. No sense in rushing back.

About The Author

Mike Pulli is the owner of Foolish Times and Right Place At The Right Time , he invites you to look at the services, download free helpful information, e-books, articles, and resources to maximize your internet and personal experiences.

Mike is a published author of Right Place at the Right Time, so you think you can beat the slots! slots (at) rightplaceattherighttime(dot) com. Mike like to play the slots and he writes articles based on his past experience playing at his favorite casinos.

 

[InPlay]

These slots are also known as one-arm bandits because of the lever used on one side of the machine and the fact that they left quite a few gaming addicts penniless. Some modern slot machines still have a lever along with a button, just to retain the original charm of slot machines. The currency detector in the slot machine confirms the validity once the money or coin is inserted in the slot. Advances in computer technology have led to the addition of different variants of slot machines.

Origin and History

One of the first machines which was based on a simple mechanism was invented by Charles Fey from San Francisco, California in 1887. The first fully functional electromechanical slot machine was devised by Bally in 1964. This slot machine which was called Money Honey was one of the first slot machines which handed over a payment of five hundred coins without an attendants help.

The BAR symbol which is a common feature in slot machines these days was derived from the Bell Fruit Gum Company logo which popularized the concept of handing out chewing gums to winners through machines. Reel 'Em In was one of the first video slot machines to offer a dual screen. A bonus round was made possible by WMS Industries Inc. in 1996.

Working of Slot Machines

Once a person inserts cash, coins or bar-coded tickets into the slot of the machine, he purchases the right to play that particular game by activating the button or using a lever, and in most modern machines a touchscreen interface. A winning combination of a variety of symbols are displayed on the face of the machine or are accessed by a touchscreen interface. The symbols which are images of fruits, hearts, diamonds, numerals, letters and bells are brightly colored in order to be recognized easily by the winner of the game. In the modern variants of slot machines the reels and lever are present for nostalgic and historic reasons.

The position of reels coming to a stop is chosen by a Random Number Generator (RNG), which is devised in the mechanism's software. With the press of the 'play' button, the RNG generates numbers randomly at the rate of hundreds to thousands per second. The most recent random number chosen determines the end result. Although some gambling professionals argue that the algorithm design in the RNG is responsible for picking up a sequence of predictable numbers, this mechanism is very popularly used the world over. In most casinos a group of machines are linked together in such a way that each slot machine contributes towards winning a progressive jackpot by combining specific symbols.

Percentage Payout

The pay percentage of slot machines are programmed in the software from the factory in which the machine is manufactured. The software is generally stored on an Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory (EPROM) chip, in case the payout percentage of the machine needs to be altered after it hits the gaming floor. The payout percentage varies under various jurisdictions established by the law.

Using a slot machine is a simple means of trying your luck rather than living in an illusion of being a skilled gamer. Slot machines are very addictive and they have become increasingly popular with people from all walks of life.